Ep 22: Navigating a Counseling Career and Chronic Illness: A Conversation with Jennifer Hama
-
This is a rough transcript created with Artificial Intelligence technology. Any misspellings and sentence errors are a result of imperfect Al.
Jennifer Hama has been practicing as a professional counselor since 2007. And she's been supervising clinicians since 2010. She's worked with patients with a variety of chronic illnesses at all levels of care, including inpatient mental health treatment centers. As well as outpatient centers,
in addition to her professional experience, Jennifer's also a spoonie in her personal life. Her professional and personal experiences have led her to develop a metatheoretical model, which she uses with patients and supervisees. And she's currently developing this model into a self-help book. That'll soon be available.
Jennifer is an undercover geek hiding in her nerdiness. Only minimally with too many fandoms to name. Her spare time is spent being geeky with her family, which includes her spouse, her three kiddos and their booby air to flounders named Dean.
Jennifer. Hi, welcome.
Hi ya.
So tell me, you've been practicing since 2007. Mm-hmm. . Um, when do you, and you have had your own private practice since then, or what's your history with
practicing?
So, I did lot of work in, um, in 2007. I went and worked straight for my, uh, the place where I did my internship, which is a psych big psychiatric hospital. You, you probably have heard of it here in Atlanta. It's like one of the largest in the southeast. And so I, I grew up there, so to speak, and did lots and lots of different jobs there and, and really enjoyed my work for the most part.
It's, it's a lot of like new things. This, it's not the same day each and every day, all of that good stuff. So I stayed there for about, Uh, 10 years. And I ended up, you know, being a director of a couple different programs, stuff like that. And I had started a small practice during that time before I took the directorship.
And then when I took the directorship, I was like, there's, I cannot, I cannot do both. Nope. And then when I was starting to get, um, burned out there, so I slowly slept down. Um, I started a family, so I slowly stepped down after I was direct. and worked there. Thankfully I was able to uh, work into like a part-time position where I had insurance, which as spoony, we know that's a tricky territory.
So I like had insurance, which was really nice. And then ended up like having to leave, there was a patient incident. I was like, I'm done. I can't, I can't anymore. I'm over this. Um, so I ended up leaving and I was working with someone who owned a private practice and I was like, you know, can I like come on board?
And they were like, yeah, sure. It was, you know, and I ended up staying with them, still with them. The practice has changed like multiple times, so I legit have like the best gig in the world. I like show up and do therapy so I don't, I don't own the practice. I'm so thankful to the practice owner. She listens to this Thank you Mari.
And you know, she gets to, to do all that cuz I still have nightmares about like, scheduling just hospital, P T S D. Like, nope, I want zero part. Yes, I'm, I'm glad to consult my, I, you know, anyone who wants feedback on that, I'm glad to give it. I just have zero interest in implementing , any of that. Yeah. Yeah.
And
just to be clear, for people who maybe listen to this, um, the, the nightmare doesn't come from the patients. It, when you're working in, in, no, it's not at all . It comes from all the admin, lack of support and politics and things of that nature. .
Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I still say like, you know, of, of all the organizations, like I do believe my hospital like, did it best and absolutely.
Like, it's just, you know, it was really, and it was again like that sort of lack of support. The patients are very ill, you know, it happened to be targeted me, but like, again, like there was that like lack of support where like, I can't, you know, I had a very strong immediate. Um, acute traumatic response, which was a little bizarre kind of being in the, from like the book reader seat to being in the real seat.
I'm like, oh, this is what this is. And so I just wasn't able to make it back after that. That makes sense. So, but yeah, that's a great clarification. It has nothing to do with
that. No, no. Yeah, it's tough. It's a tough, uh, agency work is really tough, but you do learn a lot and there's so much, there's a lot, um, there's a lot that's rewarding about it, but it is very, very tough.
Absolutely. And I, yeah, I think you do it for, for an amount of time. I don't think it's a job you're supposed to do for 30 years, you
know? Like some folks, the longest I had heard, I always joked that you would be a veteran after five years. So if you worked in hospital or agency five years, like you're like the oldest one there.
Yeah. You've been working the longest. You're the most like jaded and so like five years is about it. But I knew some folks who worked, you know, 20 close to 30 and I was like, dang. Like, oh man. As therapists or as therapists? Oh man. Yeah. Yeah. I guess technically one of 'em was a nurse first for the first half of their career and a therapist for the second.
But yeah, so I was like, that's, you know, and you know, they knew what they were doing. They, they ran their ships tight and so that was kind of nice. But yeah,
you learn, you guess if you stay there long enough, you learn the system and you learn how to make the system work for you. But if you can't, then.
Yeah. And to this day I miss it because it's just, it's, it's very, it is just very bonding to the people that you like work with. And so like, I'm still very close with a lot of folks that I like worked with. Like I'm meeting, you know, a lot of, like, some of them on Friday. Like we still like touch base and you know, and just being able to connect that way.
But also you get to serve a lot of people cuz very unfortunately, that is like the first time people interact with the mental health system. Oh my gosh. You know, I'm so sorry.
Yeah. and Yeah, like once you're already, you know, if we could, if we could get you help and support way before you reach a level where you even need intensive care Yep.
Would
be great. Absolutely. And that's also where, you know, I just ran into, I, I didn't at the time identify as someone with chronic illness, so even though technically that would fit, I think you might sort of relate to this, it's kind of like when you get all that medical gaslighting at the beginning. So I was just like, okay, I guess it's like all in my head and , you know, I'm just gonna keep, keep on rocking.
But then that, that was really my sort of like my first intro to folks. You know, we're struggling with chronic illness because they would come in and, you know, they would also have other things going on. Like, you know, could be like a comorbidity with something, but also like they would, you know, have chronic mental illness.
Again, I don't, uh, just to distinguish the difference, I don't technically believe there's too much of a difference, but like medical versus mental health and, um, and so I would see that a lot and I would get, you know, sort of, I would get what they were going through, even though I couldn't quite cross that understanding for myself yet.
You know, I would say very recently, in the last year or two have I really started to acknowledge my identity as someone with chronic. And so, um, but being around that, I got to understand a lot of like how the interactions would happen, how we would have to accept some things that we didn't want to accept and which is the big lesson if I'm working with someone with chronic illness.
That's the big lesson that I'm like, we can be pissed about it. Like as long as you need to be. I got zero, zero qualms, however long we need to take and we've got to accept the unacceptable. And, and that's kind of where I see, um, where I see the most benefit or where I like to work with folks. Cuz again, we don't, you know, it's, it's really unacceptable and yet it's.
It's, it is what it is, unfortunately.
Yeah. I definitely really, um, it took me a long time to get a diagnosis and I was so almost, I was like anti, even looking for one. Um, it was my own therapist. I've mentioned this on the podcast before, who was like, really think you need to go get checked out, . You need to, you know, I'm like, no, no, no.
Like doctors don't do anything anyway, so , , sorry, I'm pointing at you like people can screaming. I'm like, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Sorry, continue. Yeah, no, it's true though. I mean that, that's been my experience I've learned by through working with chronic illness folks is that that isn't quite the experience, of course.
No, not everyone has the same experience. Some people have the experience of like going doctor to doctor to doctor and trusting them for the answer. And, um, I'm not saying that one way is right or not, uh, but my, I just, I've always leaned towards like, I don't wanna be gaslit. I, I watched my mom, like my whole life kind of grow up with no answers and just like said it was all in her head.
And yeah, so it was even interesting because when I first started looking for my, or when I first got a diagnosis and I realized like, dang, yeah, I've actually had chronic pain for like the last eight years. Um, But I, it wasn't never that I had my own trauma with doctors, it was that I had my mom's trauma with doctors and I didn't
even know it.
You have, yeah. Now that you say that, I'm like, cuz it's, I've got a, um, an illness called endometriosis, which is, does have some genetic piece to it. And so it, like multiple women in in our family all told these things. Even now, like even now, they'll tell me things and I'm just so, you know, thankful and lucky that I have like good, a good doctor that happens to be in here, like in the Atlanta area that like actually knows what he is talking about because most doctors don't.
And like they'll still hear like the same stuff and. Like don't, yeah, no, that's, that's incorrect. But yeah, and same with like my mom. I didn't put the two together until you had just said that, but yeah, just the, nothing really like helps and they get gaslit or they're told, you know, you're just, you know, you can't tolerate pain or whatever.
Nonsense. Yeah. You're being dramatic or you're a hypochondriac, I mean, yep. Yeah. It's oof. Yeah. All of the above. All of the above. Yeah. So,
yeah, so definitely like starting to, and you know, I think internalizing some of that was part of my journey, very unfortunately. But, you know, wanna be, wanna be transparent, you know, I think I was like harder on people because of that.
And I think that has done, you know, uh, to accept that I've done some damage because of that. Because I was like, I'm working through all of this. Like, why can't you? Yeah. And so having to just re rework that for myself and being able to say like, rest is important, like that, that one is still a little hard to like swallow a bit.
And, um, To be able to like get with those things, but that's, that's been a little bit tricky and sort of challenging all of that internalized ableism. Yes.
Especially when you're a mom, because obviously in this country we don't have, there's no free childcare, there's no support system, there's no care for infected.
Now there's a movement of like, just if you have kids, that's your choice. You like you deal with it. It's
like, oh, right, right. It's. Oh, oh, we're gonna be like, oh, so happy for you, but you don't want help . Yeah. I'm not gonna help you.
Exactly. Yeah. I feel like right as I was starting to learn the lesson about slowing down, like, bam, I got pregnant and then I was like, oh, slow down.
That's not even an option anymore. .
Right, right. Absolutely. I, and I had different experiences. One of the, the big myths with endometriosis is that like, um, oh, just get pregnant and it'll go away. And um, I, I was very, very lucky, again, not a doctor who specialized in endometriosis, but who was like really on top of the infertility game.
So I had infertility with my first one and, um, was able to get pregnant via iui. Uh, it was great. Like when I had the pregnancy, like when I was pregnant, I was like, oh, that's when I really started to like, click something is wrong here. Because I was like, I feel fantastic.
Mm. Like this, which I've heard people with autoimmune and I actually, I felt better too when I was pregnant, but I had just started feeling better break
prior, so
Yeah.
But anyway, yes. Like, who knows, who knows? , right? So it's interesting, your, your relaxing, your system. Um, sorry, your symptoms going away was like this thing, I was like, whoa, this is
different . I was like, oh, oh, is this how people feel? Oh my gosh. And then like, but right after I was done being pregnant, sort of set off this like cascade of health issues.
That, and then each, I've had, I've got three. And each subsequent pregnancy was like worse and worse and worse. Mm. And so like it, but I, I got a hint of it at that first pregnancy. I was like, oh, this is what people feel like when, when they're like, their body's not like attacking itself. .
Yeah. And remind me, did you get your, you got your diagnosis after?
I did. Okay. I did, I got my diagnosis actually a y a year and a half ago. Okay. So this had been going on since I was 13. Wow. 13 to 41. Oh man. However many years that is. So like 23 or so. And brain fog also another, another symptom. I can't do math right now. Um, so yeah, so it, it had been a significant period of time, multiple doctors, multiple ER visits, you know, and thankfully with, with this doctor that I have, he's like, you know, I've got, there's a bit of a trifecta of illnesses that occur at the same time.
And so you can have, like, I, I also have diabetes and so I have to manage like these other ones in order to manage the pain. And so it's, it, you know, it's very helpful to like, one, have a doctor. Like he didn't, this is what I tell my patients too. I'm like, your doctor doesn't have to agree with you, but you do have to believe that your doctor understands what you're saying.
Like, so they, they don't, he, you know, he didn't have to agree with me, but when I had had a surgery, Um, to fix it and to remove a lot of the adhesions. And he was like, I don't think it's endometriosis. He was like, but I do think it's like inflammation and the pain is there and that was just so nice to just hear someone say like, I'm so sorry, like that hurts.
And I'm like, thank you. Like, cuz I'm not like making this up. And my pain was like so much better. You know? I was still just having. You know, once a month . Oh. And so I was like, I hate even complaining about this cuz my life is like 90% better, but it's like significant. Like, I
can't move .
And again, just that, like, that pain tolerance that you develop over so many years, you're like, oh, okay, .
Yeah. Is that exactly when you have to work through the pain too? Going back to just living in a society that doesn't really care about anybody who like, can't push through it. Um, that means there's no resources and no support when, when you're down and out.
Yeah. I think the last I had looked, there's like 50, 50 ish endometriosis doctors in the States. Wow. So like, so the chances are this is a part of my thing. I like to, I like to educate people and like, listen. Chances are the doctor you're speaking with does not specialize in endometriosis. I've had doctors tell me to my face the absolute wrong thing.
Wow. About it. And you know, in that moment I couldn't challenge them on their like, erroneous beliefs. One, there's a power differential two, uh, I didn't have the, the spoon or the energy to do it cuz obviously I wasn't feeling well when I was seeing said doctors. But yeah, just like a lot of, a lot of gaslighting, you know, and all of that to be able to like, you know, get people to the right place.
I think is a bit tricky. I imagine that was part of your journey as well, you know, where your, your therapist
Yes. Not trained in medicine. Yes. I'm assuming No . No, no, but she herself had Ella's don low syndrome, and so she just mm-hmm. , she thought that I might have that just from some of my symptoms, but I don't think I do.
I have a little bit of hypermobility, but nothing really diagnosable. Mm-hmm. , that's actually been all of my symptoms and all, like, it always feels like I'm just on the cusp of like a diagnosis of something. Yeah. And then it, it doesn't quite meet criteria. Yeah. And so I think that too is like, Where some of the gaslighting comes in because Yeah, I mean, and mental health too, it's like addiction, right?
Typically. I mean, now I think there's a lot more therapists working with like sober curious and, and yeah. Instead of like, but before it was like you either had addiction or you didn't. Yeah. But if you were just like binge drinking every weekend and it wasn't affecting your work and your life, but like, it was still something you couldn't really change.
You really did need help for it. Right. Again, you weren't, you weren't addicted, so therefore there's no help for you. And I feel like that's kinda, you know, that's how it is. Same thing with diabetes, same thing with, you
know. Yep. Yeah, because I, um, yeah, the same thing with like diabetes, where people will describe some symptoms to me, type.
Two. Um, they're definitely a difference with type one. Um, and so like people would describe some of that and they're like, my doctor says like, I'm not diabetic. And I'm like, was this the fasting test? Was this, did you spend three hours drinking like this awful disgusting Gatorade then, then you didn't
And I'm like, I'm not a doctor. And yet I'm like, . Yeah.
Yep. And that's where we come in, right? As therapists. I think this is something we talk about, I've talked about this a lot, but maybe not in this level of clarity. Like our role of being therapists who specialize in chronic illness is not to treat the D disorder.
It's obviously the, everyone kind of understands the managing stress piece of it, but it's also about helping you find resources and doctors and answers by Yes, here's what to ask and how to ask and when
to ask. Yes, yes. Absolutely. And, and one of the other big things too, I think is. Is to be able to, um, so, so one of the things that I do, um, me and Nadia Klons Davis, who's also here in Atlanta, air quotes up in Suwanee, um, she, um, her and I put together the CE for other therapists, like how ethics and competencies for working with people in persons with chronic illness and pain.
And that was one of the things is sort of that like no diagnosis is good enough, like meaning, so no diagnosis. If there's not like a title there, that's fine. Title doesn't matter. Um, it's helpful for you in a sense that it's easier for us to accept. Right. Going back to that acceptance piece, like having that name is helpful for us to be able to put.
And understanding with it. And yet I don't want people to put off acceptance for lack of a title. And, and you know, like you were saying, when we go in with, with doctors, a lot of times they wanna have that check, check, check, check, check box, then we can like be able to like, if we allow this sort of like, discussion to be able to say like, these symptoms, like, just because like they're, it's not like matching what's in this little box set.
It doesn't mean that it's not happening. So Dr. Zo like, try to put into this box and I'm like, the body is much more complex than that. And again and again, if my patients can't explain to me, What the doctor is describing, the doctor didn't do a good enough job. Like, I'm sorry. Like, and I know, I know how hard it is to explain to folks like medical, I, I consider it a whole different language, but, but you have to be able to explain it that level, like that, that just has to happen.
If a patient doesn't understand their diagnosis, that unfortunately is on the qual like the provider to be able to explain why or why not, which again goes to my thing of like if, uh, the doctor doesn't have to agree with you, but they do have to like be able to explain it to you. or they need to be, you at least need to believe that they're like listening to you.
Yeah. And understand you, because that's how, that's what we do as therapists, right. Reflective listening. Is this what I hear you saying? Okay, so you're concerned that this pain is related to this. Here's why I think it is. Here's why I don't think it is. And, and like lay it out. Like, yeah. It, I, you know, I don't know if it's because of our therapist training.
I'm like, I don't feel like it's that hard.
I feel like, yeah. I think the same thing. I'm like, ah, like whenever I start to go down that train of thought, I'm like, give them slack. Like they literally weren't trained in this. But then I'm also like, shouldn't like a course in motivational interviewing. I mean, motivational interviewing is literally, oh,
motivational interviewing is like glorious. I don't know. Do you know, um, uh, Dr. Bethea Walsh? Mm-hmm. . She's here in the Atlanta area. Uhhuh . She's a trainer for mi. She's great. If you ever get a chance to take mi, like the doctor should take an MI course with her. Yes. It's so like wonderful and they've done some research.
This was on the, I think it was the Adam Grant podcast. Hmm? They were talking about burnout. Yeah. They were talking about burnout with doctors. And burnout does lead to lack of empathy. Again, like hospital agency systems. Right. We understand this and they were like, one of the best ways to like get back in is to connect back with that empathy, that motivation.
For people to change. Yes. And so, you know, so it's,
it's funny, as you just said that, I'm like, yeah, but doesn't lack of empathy lead to burnout? ?
It's, it's such a, like, is it cart horse? I don't know. It's definitely like one of the things that, you know, working in the hospital I was very familiar with, like the science of burnout.
I help people now that are professionals, like work with burnout. And it's definitely one of those things where it's like, do I, do I stop caring because I have to save myself? Because if I continue to care in a system that doesn't, like, that's dangerous. You know, it's, it's sort of like if you're in an unhealthy relationship, continuing to care is unsafe.
Yeah. And so it's, yeah, it's a, it's a really interesting. The paradox that you're bringing up. Like w wasn't it there? Isn't that the ? Yeah. Is that the symptom?
Who knows? I know, I know. Yeah. you know, learning to talk with empathy and compassion and paraphrase correctly, and summarize correctly.
It is a skill. It does take time to learn, but the research is clear. I mean, as therapist, we all know that goodness of fit like personality is more important than, um, your theoretical orientation. But what I was surprised to find was that there's actually been research done with medical doctors too, that it, the relationship between you and your doctor will help you fare better and have better health, physical health results just because you had a good relationship with your doctor rather than like going to the best specialist in the world.
Yep, yep. I really liked the, the Netflix show. Um Oh. Lennox Hill.
I didn't want, somebody just mentioned that to me. like a week ago. Yeah.
What is that about again? They're, there are two, I believe they're oncologists specializing in a, I, gosh, it's been a couple years since I've watched it, but I actually took a CE with them.
The one of the s in Georgia had the, the doctors on and you know, we got to like talk to them and stuff. Cool. But like one of the things that I really liked about I'd, I'd written a blog post about it, like one of the great things about that is like they really did like connect with their patients and they connected with them emotionally and they also had a lot of laughter.
I am like the queen of sarcasm and dark humor. And also too soon need to be told to too soon. I'll accept that feedback graciously all the time. But like, that's one of the things that I really saw about that because we are talking about , Terminal cases, like there, there is not recovery. It's about that quality of life, which I think is so incredibly important for, for us as clinicians too.
Um, you know, one of the things when I'm working with folks at, at the hospital, I, you know, there's a lot of folks where it was just chronic like that, that was the illness, that was gonna be it. Whether that was schizophrenia, whether that was a bipolar illness, and then sometimes like depression, anxiety last throughout the lifetime.
And, you know, being able to just sort of accept that this will continue, but we can give you a good quality of life, I just think is so important. And recognizing that, you know, having fun and, and laughing and enjoy. You know, is a part of that, being able to like, add that to your life. And yet sometimes ableism is like, well, if you're able to have fun, you're not that sick.
It's like, okay, so I should be miserable 24 7 in order to do you
believe me. No. Yeah. Yeah. And we get caught up in that so quickly. Not even consciously, but we just, we learn, oh, people respond to me with more belief when I am sicker. Therefore, my bo I, I believe this is a really tricky conversation because it can sound like you are making yourself worse.
And I promise that it's not the case here, but I really do believe that when you get basically positive reinforcement for, for being sick, in other words, people believe you, when you're really, really sick. Yeah. Your body literally sends signals to the rest of your body saying, This is how we get what we need.
Yes. And it literally makes you physically sicker.
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that, and then that sort of, uh, ends in, again, not, not as a judgment, like we want to be seen as humans. Right. That's sort of like a core fundamental thing. Yes. I want to be believed for my authentic self, which is currently in pain.
And so like that is one of those things where I'm like, you know, I, you just gotta like go in with that because the consequences are more devastating, unfortunately. And so we have a hard time with that as a society where like, I don't wanna give attention to things like, we do this to kids. Right. They're just doing it for intention.
I'm like, of course. , that's, yeah. Literally
what their body needs. Yes. In their
minds, facts, that's what they're doing. We need attention from people. It's so true. It like, that's not a negative thing. And so like if I'm going to someone with a pain that there's like concerned about, like why don't you just start with, oh my gosh.
Like that pain is there. I bet that's like a really difficult experience. Like, I'm a therapist who used the word should and awful. I I That shouldn't be there. That's so awful. I'm sorry. . I
absolutely use those words too. I have a, I I have a, um, a pet peeve with the, we'll deviate a little bit, but a pet peeve with, um, therapist saying like, we shouldn't use should.
I'm like, that's You're literally saying should in the sentence . Yes. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. No connection, right? Or Well, we're saying attention cuz that's the word that, that gets everyone. Yes. But it's about connection. It's, it is. It's a human, it's a human, um, instinct. Yep. Yep. And your pain, the research shows your pain physically is better when you feel socially supported.
Yes. And so then people will be around their friends or their family, and they'll be feeling good. And they're like, wait, why am I feeling good? Like, does that mean my pain is in my head? Oh my God, they're all right. They're right. It's in my head. And it Right spiral. And then you're like, then you isolate and then you feel bad again, and you're like, oh, see, okay.
And it actually
keeps you stuck.
It's such a nasty cycle. It is such a nasty cycle because, and again, like if we think about the mechanisms of gaslighting, right? Gaslighting is used as a perpetration of violence, right? So not to go like super dark here, but I'm going like, right. Those are the things that like, War, like victims of war have, like experienced or prisoners of war have experienced, right?
If we go back to like Judith Herman's book on trauma, like gaslighting is a way to like make the person feel unstable. So it's, we see it in relationships of violence, like intimate partner violence. We see it with like prisoners of war. We see it in these other like unhealthy relationships that maybe folks don't wanna use that, that term violence with, right?
The whole gamut. But, but what it's doing, it's creating that sort of unstable foundation within the self too. And so that unfortunately creates this, this dynamic that, that I wanna kind of come in and change to be able to say like, the pain is there, whether or not you believe it, whether or not it's anything urgent, I don't know.
Maybe not right? But I know that the pain is there, it is valid, whatever the reason. And I would really love some medical people just to say, yeah, I don't know. Yes. Don't
know. We've definitely talked about this conversation on the podcast like, can't you? Yeah. Do you know how much world of good you would do to just say, you don't know?
I don't know. So you come in with this authority, like you know all the answers, but you actually don't. It just perpetuates that gaslighting it, it it's,
yeah. I, and I appreciate this sort of like, want to put in this sort of like that, that, that confidence in your skillset, which I, I appreciate. Right. I think that we as professionals do need to be present confidently in areas in which we are confident.
But if you don't know the answer, you need to confidently say, I don't know. . Yes, .
Yes. And when you know your stuff, when you actually really know it, yeah. It actually is so much easier to say. I don't know.
Well, and it's a lot easier to trust too, right? I trust someone who knows the bounds of their knowledge, and so if you're not showing me where the bounds of your knowledge are, I can't actually build that trust.
Right. We're getting into, I like the science of trust by Gottman. It's a, it's a, it's a tough read, but like I really appreciate it because like it's in those like little moments of saying, gosh, like I don't know the answer to that.
Yes. I think too, we're coming from an era where Dr. Professional. Like it had such a, um, like a high degree of authority.
You know, if you were a doctor, your answer was like, that was the gold standard answer. Yeah. And for whatever reason, I'm sure somebody with more understanding of of social cycles and whatnot could explain us better than I, but we're, I think we're in a phase now where authority is kind of looked down upon.
We're more in like this kind of, we're all on the same level playing field. Um, and so I, I, yeah. What you're, I like what you're saying about, you know, be confident where you are confident. Um, I think that's really important. But you don't have to be this all-knowing person because we actually don't really even respect that much anymore the way we used to.
Absolutely. And I think that's, I think that's
okay. Yeah, just that, and again, like the part of the conversation that I've had with my mom is she's like, well, we were just always taught to listen to the doctor. And I'm like, yeah, you can listen to them. Does that mean you trust them? Like, listening to me is about respect.
Like, but that doesn't mean anything about trust. It could, but you know, no one is going to advocate for you. Like, that's, that's I think, a really hard lesson to hear. And so a lot of folks, a lot of the, the people that I work with, they're like, you know, well, I don't wanna seem like I'm this. And I'm like, I appreciate that.
I do. And that may certainly happen if, if you do that however, You know, you can also like not go back to them, you know, which very unfortunately looks like doctor shopping, but I'm like, is it doctor shopping or is it like actually advocating for your health?
Yeah. I think too, not to go down the rabbit hole too far of like social issues, but, um, in the past, women and people of color did not have voices.
Yep. And so if you went to the doctor as a woman, like it wasn't just about them being a doctor, it was also about them being a man. Yes. And so you didn't question you. Questioning meant you were not, um, trusting and you were supposed to trust. And I think now we're, we're, we're actually all, a lot of societally, I think we're all learning to try to trust ourselves more.
Yep. Well, and entrusting, go ahead.
Absolutely. Well, and if you think about the very nature of chronic illness or chronic pain, that's about the betrayal of the body, right? And we're starting to like learn to trust the body again, just as we are, like the people around us, very unfortunately, because, you know, no one in the society.
ableism, racism, sexism, like we're, we're all affected. And we've all internalized some messages of that just by nature of being in the society, some more than others. And then, you know, and so we're really, I really wanna separate the difference between the, what we're using for that word, trust. You know, I can't trust someone that I just met and I mean, like a doctor
Yes. That you literally walked in five minutes ago. There is no way that I should or can trust you at this point in time. Yep. And so how do we build trust? And that's not about disrespect, like I, it's about relationships. It, right. It's, it's gotta be like two. I can't trust someone who's disrespectful, but I can't, you know, necessarily, I cannot trust someone and be respectful.
It's, it's one of, yeah, like weird paradoxes where it's like an orange is an orange, but not all things don't orange or oranges. .
Yeah, absolutely. Um, it. You know, and if you're, I think too, uh, I, I use the Enneagram a lot in my work, and I think it helps me understand like, like certain people are going to be more trusting of authority than others.
And so Yep. If you are a person that highly trusts authority, you might go into your doctor's office with a lot of trust, whether they have earned it or not. And yeah, if that is helpful to you, then great. Because again, the relationship, the trust in the relationship is what's going to ultimately be what gets you the best results.
So, mm-hmm. , you know, unless, of course someone's doing harm , but, right. Um, yeah, I was like,
and, and evidence based
practice . Yeah. There's of course, right, there's that. Um, but yeah, it, and then if you're the type of person that that needs to build trust and relationship, Back in the day, um, you know, there was like one doctor for the whole town and they knew everyone in the town.
And so yes, maybe there was some of that also like man, woman, like, um, authority kind of thing going on. But also I think when you are the doctor and you, you've been around for 20 years and you were the, you were their pediatrician and now you're also their doctor as a 20 year old. Yeah. Like that trust was built.
Yeah. Um, and yeah, so building trust with our doctors now, I think we're all still trying to figure out how do we do that? Everyone's a specialist. You go to a different doctor for a different part of the body. Yeah. And they all have different opinions, so we have no choice but to learn how to trust ourselves and listen to ourselves and figure out what feels good and what doesn't because they, they literally cannot do that for us.
Yeah, absolutely. And, and this isn't to like bash like doctors, like I don't believe, I, I don't believe that most of them are like ill-intentioned. I do think statistically speaking, there's gotta be a few that are like , statistically speaking. There's gotta be any profession and any profession therapists included.
I'll, I'll talk about therapists later. Um, , they're, they're just as bad. So like they're, I say that with love , um, the. Yeah, it's, and, and again, there's that sort of like issue with like, you know, using that sort of small town example, that means we also get to see the whole picture of them too. Right. And so that means that that trust is built two ways and because of the way that our health system works and because of the way that agency systems work, the, the system that I worked for was for-profit.
It's a big Fortune 500 company, like for-profit. And so like those systems work a little bit differently and they're gonna be about efficiency. So it's not just about like the individual doctor we are talking about like systems upon systems that have created this, not the individual. And so when you've.
Nine minutes to see a client or your admin team is gonna be on you because you're not seeing enough patients in a day because the billing can't get done and the billing's not being accepted. Like, this is not like an individual issue. This is like a systems issue that's happening within our healthcare system.
It's, but because we have that sort of reverence for the doctor, you know, they're sort of the head, they're the face of the systems, but that's not usually the person that's got a lot of the power to make these changes. They're not usually the c e o, they're not usually that C-suite level being able to do that.
And so, yeah. So I don't wanna sound like I'm, I'm bashing them too hard. I'm bashing a little lightly a light bashing of, it's, we're
all a part of this system. Yeah.
We are all a part of it. We've all, you know, and I've certainly been guilty of it too, working in the system, not explaining things well enough, being annoyed with patients and not explaining well enough.
I've done it. I'm not perfect, you know, and so, and yet, We need to do
better. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I think that's, that's a part of it is, um, learning to talk about where, where we have figured out how we can do differently and then helping others do differently. Understanding too that there is a system at play, um mm-hmm.
and it's not just about individual work, but unfortunately sometimes that's all you have control over. Um, and you do have to figure out where you can, what you can do within that paradigm.
Yeah. Well, right, that's back to that burnout question. Um, I didn't, uh, his name is Gentry g I can't think of his first name right now, but he had a burnout course out a while ago, years ago.
And I loved his formula. His formula for burnout was, um, perceived demands is greater than perceived resources equals burnout. And I love that because, I like formulas, uh, that's just how my brain works. But because we can sort of toggle that formula, right? So when we've got this perceived demand, which in these big healthcare systems we do, that's a lot of demand.
That's a lot of like being available. Now we have portals and so now they've gotta like answer portal messages, which, you know, love and hate. And then, then you don't feel like you have enough like perceived resources equals burnout. Same thing with chronic illness. We can use that same resource, like the perceived demand being able to function through my day versus the resources that I think I have or don't have leads to.
Also that burnout, that same sort of thing. And the who put burnout as a diagnosis like three years ago now. And so, you know, when we're, when we're thinking about that, those systems that are hard to change, those systems can also be contributing to burnout. And a lot of times they try to make that an individual issue versus a systems issue.
They're like, go get a massage. Like, come on, come on. Really? Yep. I mean, I'll take a massage cuz that's Yeah. , please gimme the massage. And also . And, and, and that's not gonna be enough for burnout because we're talking about these big systems. Yeah. Right. The same as the body. It's it's
multiple levels. Yeah.
Yeah. It's hard to advocate for yourself in these systems. Um, which I think is why a lot of people are moving into, you know, entrepreneurism and freelancing and which brings its own set of like, issues with it. Yeah. But, yep. Um, It's complicated.
It's so complicated. Yeah. That leads into that kind of the work that I'm wanting to do now or kind of next, is to really help therapists who are short on time and energy manage their practice because we're all kind of getting that feedback.
You, you and your practice, so, You know how much demand there is and stuff and I'm like, you know, it's, I've got this sort of like great way of being able to figure out how to do it like the most energy efficient possible because not realizing that I had chronic pain and chronic illness for 20 something years, one of the benefits of it was that I got really efficient because I could never predict my pain level and I would still have to get things done.
So I'm like trying to use this sort of like superpower that developed over the years to help other clinicians be able to figure out like how to do that Because these systems are so big and if we try to change this big slow moving system, we're gonna burn out. Yeah. So let's focus on building your practice like the way and helping clinicians do that so that they can better serve their patients and better serve themselves.
Cuz what's the point of being your own? Business owner when your business is now running you into the ground, . Yeah.
What would you say would be some of the ways that you, that you help clinicians from, either from a, maybe an example for each, an individual perspective, a systems perspective? Um, and I feel like there's a third, but it's not coming to me right
now.
Yeah. I think part for, for clinicians as an individual, I really would, I really would do that acceptance piece because if we, if we wake up in the day, in the, you know, the beginning of the day and we're like, oh, this is gonna be like a flare day. Oftentimes that sort of like internal, internal logic there is like, I, I can't do this.
Why did I think I could? It's not usually like, great, like my body is doing this. All of those types of things. It's really about coming in and accepting like, oh, today is a. Flare day, so I have low spoons and adjust accordingly. So starting with that acceptance, and like I said, we can be as angry about it as we wanna be, but we don't, we're not gonna doubt your skill based on something that you can't control.
And so I like spoon theory. I've kind of taken it to be, I'm a bit of a nerd, so take a bit more of like a roll of the dice , because you can't predict it. And so I'm like, if you just like rolled a one , like we gotta
accept it. I
like that you rolled a one and then you plan accordingly and, and again, like we can be mad about it, we can be disappointed about it.
Those are all valid, yet we still have that one. And you have to divide your, your resources accordingly.
I like what you said. Um, I see a lot in the, I'm in some like therapists chronic illness Facebook groups and. I do see a lot like, um, questioning their skill Yeah. As a therapist because they can't handle the demands of that one day.
Yep. And I really hope, who I really, I know therapists listen to this podcast too, and I really, this is a, this is a really important message. It's just cuz I see this so often to, maybe we can talk a little bit more about that. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Um, it might sound unfair at first to say, you know, you just have to divide your resources and kind of like figure out what's most important.
But at the end of the day, that is all we can do. Yeah. And if at the end, if you try to have a whole day of sessions and it's going, it's gonna leave you feeling like a terrible therapist, which spirals into, yep, I'm bad at my job. Is this career right for me? Yeah. It's like, why don't we just let one day go.
Yeah. Rest. Do what we have to do. Sacrifice in that way. Yeah. And keep your, your confidence about you as a therapist
intact. Yeah, absolutely. Like I think that, well, as pessimistic as I am, like I'm very pessimistic. Everyone knows this, uh, as all of us pessimists like to say, we're just realists, we're not really like the cha the chances of you rolling a one one day is like guaranteed.
Like, oh yeah, so, right. So it's like going to happen. So we wanna be able to do that. And then again, like, I'm okay if we wanna be disappointed or hurt. It's not fair. Absolutely. Right. And yet, and, and here we are. And I also think I'm very high on patient care. Like everyone knows me that knows that I'm always thinking of like patients first.
And so there's like, that's just part of our job as therapists, that we unfortunately have to put patient care sometimes above ourselves, not always. And so I do believe that there are ways that we can set up a practice to best serve them and best serve us. So when my, um, thankfully I'm very lucky, my mobility is not impacted.
Much anymore. It happens. So, but when my mobility was impaired, I had a conversation with my patients. I was like, listen, you know, I just sometimes can't physically make it to the office today. So I may have to, like, I, thankfully, I, I've always been able to do virtual work and that's helped with the pain because if I'm thinking and talking, I can't feel it.
That doesn't work for everyone. That worked for me. Okay. So I don't necessarily like recommend that, but that's a case by case basis. And so they were like, yeah, like that's totally fine. And so that was a conversation that like I had ahead of time with people and I don't think I had anyone where that was a problem.
Um, I'm sure there would be like statistically speaking, someone that has a problem with it, but you can have that conversation ahead of time. So that's like another, like, I think there's a way around it if we can just accept that it's at a one. If we spend our time thinking and comparing about how we are to another clinician like that, that's using that one.
In a way that's not gonna be helpful. Let's use that one in a way that will be helpful. Do, do we need to see less patients more frequently? You know, how do you wanna, like, there's lots of different ways that we can do that. And so, you know, and again, with patient care, cuz because we are providers, we need to really think about the patient.
And then very unfortunately, for those of us that are spoony too, we have to like see how that impacts it and how can we get around it. Because, you know, the, the days of Sigmund Freud are gone, , they don't always have to lay on a couch on your couch one hour a week and talk about their mothers three times a week.
three times a
week, , right?
Yes, yes. There is a way. And the beauty of that is, is that the way that works for you as a clinician will benefit someone. So it will benefit the right patient for you. Yes. And that's what we, that's what we've gotta, that's what we wanna connect with. That, that if, if you're needing to do this, someone out there in the world is needing to do that.
Sorry, in the state of Georgia, legally speaking, ,
if, well depends on where your license, I actually, I had someone email me from from Switzerland the other day that listens to the podcast. So
love it. I love it all over the world. . Yeah. All over the world. So, so depending where you're licensed,
there's going to be someone that needs the way that you work with them. So I really encourage people, if you get to know what you need, then we can adequately provide the clients for what they need. Which to me is like win win. Yeah. Like great.
It leads down a conversation about values and understanding what your priorities are based on how you wanna show up and live your life.
And so, yeah, when we wake up with, we've rolled the dice and it's a one, and I love the dice analogy. I've never used, I know all about the spoon. Yeah. But I don't really use it, um, like spoony the word or anything. Yeah. So I love the dice analogy. Um, dicey . Yeah, dicey. That's great. I love that .
Um, so
yeah, if you wake up with a one and you know exactly what your priorities are, it doesn't mean the ball isn't gonna be dropped and other things that are important to you.
Yeah. You know, it, the ball will be dropped. It has to be so that you can, and so I agree. Like so as a therapist, patient care, client care is my top priority. Yep. . And so when I wake up and I have, you know, one or two, and I have, I tend to not have five clients in one day, but Wednesdays I usually just Wednesdays.
Um, sure. And that's one of my ways of maintaining self-care is I don't typically see more than three. Yep. Um, and never more than three in a row. Yep. Um, and so that is, so I can be a better therapist for that fourth person in the day. Yep. Yep. . And yeah. On that day though, on Wednesdays, I know that my house is not getting cleaned.
Uh, I'm not like enduring my break between the two and the three that I see. I'm just playing with my kid cuz that's my other priority. Yeah. She's 10 months like Oh, so that's a great age . Yeah. So gooey at that age. I know she is. Yeah. She just started walking, so. Oh yeah. She's love it. She's a goo moving, moving gooey
Oh, moving
goo
Mellow. Yeah, . Love it. But yeah. Yeah. So those are my, those are my priorities. Um, I have lots and lots of other things. I've got the podcast, I've got so many things and I wish I could get them all done in a day, but even people without chronic illness, like, Yes. If you are doing that much work in a day, you are absolutely overloading your adrenals with cortisol.
Yeah. So it's It's not
healthy. It's not healthy. No, it's not. I just had high cortisol levels too. . . Yeah. They were like, what are you like stressed? I was like, I wasn't that time , but Lord, these labs probably look bad, just come back to normal. You know, cortisols can be weird, but mm-hmm. . Yeah. Mm-hmm. like Absolutely.
And very unfortunately, you know, when we're talking about manage these illnesses, like managing stress is not lip service. So like people are always talking about managing stress in a way that's, uh, what I call fluffy. And I'm like, yeah, that's, you're not like really talking. I hate the term self-care, but like when we're talking about self-care, self-care is like that,
that
hard choice to say, I can't go do the things that I love in order to.
Stay alive and healthy to be able to do that longer. And so it's, so when people talk about self-care, like, and I, I like massages and manicures just like everyone else, like that's, that's not what I'm talking about. Health self, self-care is really healthcare in, in the daily front. And so that means, I have to be able to like manage, you know, certain things.
I have to make sure, like I'm in bed on time when I really just wanna go binge the latest, like Wednesday the Netflix show. It's really good. Um, like I'm,
I'm not a TV person, so I always miss the, um, yeah. References, but Love TV Wednesday. Sounds good. I'll,
yeah, yeah. Uh, TV and Pinterest. TV and Pinterest are the two things that I do in flareups.
Like, love it. Oh
yeah.
Pinterest. Yeah. Oh, . Oh, so great. So great. I have a, a meme board for chronic illness. It like, survives me on my flares. I'm like, yep, . Oh, that's great. Add to the flare board. So, um, yeah, so, you know, it's, it's really like hard and, and so I get a little like irritated when people like, sort of like talk about self-care and these like sort of things and I'm like, I really.
Yeah, I'm gonna go here today. Like that's a really like privileged position that you're speaking from. Like I like have to do this.
because I've, I, I have to do this to survive.
Like, yes, if I don't manage this, like, you know, this is a problem. And so when we're talking about this for like therapists and how they practice, I'm like, I, I, we can't make that comparison to an able body person.
You cannot, and I would probably push to say we're assuming that they're able bodied and we don't really know what's going on behind the scenes. And so, you know, that
just to be able, or how much help they have, is their family in town? Does their mom take care of their kids? Do they have enough, does their husband or does their partner make enough money to have?
Absolutely. Absolutely. And if you fall, like on those forums, you'll see like when people go in and ask the healthcare question, like, I wouldn't be able to be in private practice if not for my. Same. I loving, same, same love. I love my spouse, but I will tell them, I will tell him and anyone all day long I marriage you for your insurance.
So like the actual marriage of it, right? the actual marriage Yeah. Was for insurance. Totally. Yeah. And, and so, you know, again, I like to tell folks, you know, you don't make that comparison. We don't know that about your clinical skills. So on those days you roll a one. , you know, I know it's hard, but don't waste that energy on comparing it to someone else's practice when I guarantee we don't know the odds and ends.
You know, I have a very privileged look because I do a lot of consulting for therapists, so I know what's going on behind the scenes, right? And I'm like, no one there is running a perfect practice. I can guarantee it. Absolutely. And so like, don't waste your one on that. Let's use your one to like do something that's gonna be beneficial for your healthcare and your recovery and we will figure out the rest when you have rolled a higher dice number or die.
Yeah. . Singular, plural. I have no clue.
Donna. Oh yeah. I think that is a really important point. As a therapist, we do, we get this insider look into everyone's life and. It's when I'm scrolling on Instagram, my my guilty pleasure is like home decor and like, oh yeah, just styling your house. And man, if I, if I made more than I make now, my house would look like an Instagram room.
Instagram house. Oh, it's, oh,
I just love it. But one of, one of my friends does a, a podcast, it's called, um, it didn't break me, and she like goes in, but one of the questions that she does at the end is, what, what's a mess in your life right now? And I'm like, looking at my room right now, and I'm like, it does not look like a Pinterest room.
Love that question.
It's such a great que question. That's great. She's she's great. Yeah. Her name's Bianca Hughes. She does a, she's here in Atlanta. Okay. I'll have to, I think Sandy Springs Atlanta. I'm gonna have to look that
one up. That's amazing. Yeah. What in your life is a mess? Right? Yeah, I'm gonna have to, I've been trying to think of a question that I can ask all guests and it just, nothing has like, hit me yet.
So, I mean, I'm not gonna use her question, but I'm, I, it's like helping me think of what I want to ask. Um, that's really great. Mm-hmm. and, yeah. So I, when I'm scrolling now these days, I'm like, I, I don't just look at this beautiful home that somebody has posted. I'm like, one, what does the other corners of that room Yes look like?
Yes. Two, how long did it take you? How much spoons, whether you have a chronic or illness or not, how many spoons did it take you to curate that corner? And do I want to spend my time doing that? Yep. Some days the answer is yes, and that's a form of self-care. It's like, I actually, I just wanna spend a, like a weekend curating this corner in my home.
Yes. And that's fine. Yes. But I'm not gonna pretend that. Cures my, my anxiety or my depression or my chronic illness or like that, it makes life all better. It's just, this was just a hobby that I did for a weekend. It looks beautiful. I'm happy with it, but it doesn't make my life like inherently better.
Yeah. My, my energy is best spent on, again, client care, you know, having fun with my daughter and, um,
yeah, absolutely. And that 10 month old is going to really get the hang of walking and then we'll pull it down, in 2.5 seconds in such the cutest way that you'll like scream and be like, oh, at the same time,
A hundred percent. She's been crawling since she was four, so we've actually gotten quite four months.
Oh my gosh. That is quite early. I'm so sorry, .
I know that's always the answer, the response I got. That's okay. Yes. I, I will take your, your empathy, your
sympathy, walking. Yeah. Walking early to it. Like people like get so proud of their kids walking and I'm like, Ooh.
Ooh, no frontal lobe and walking. That sounds like an awful idea. . That is just it. Yeah.
Oh, I cannot tell you how many pebbles of dog food I have taken out of this child's mom. Oh, yeah. Yeah. In the last
six months. , all of my kids love dog food. . Love it.
Oh, anyway. Yeah. This has been so good, Jennifer. Yeah. Is there anything else you wanna share that you feel like listeners could leave with?
Um, yeah, I think I wanna pop back cuz I don't think I answered the systems question too, for like, for therapists with chronic illness and like systems, I, I really want people to sort of like think about how they're interacting with the system. So my, my other specialty is I work with patient, I work with people who are perfectionist caretakers and people pleasers PCPs.
And so therapists tend to be in that column. So I say that lovingly, that's mo like, we tend to be in that column too. So when you're in a system, My, my suspicion is, is that the expectations are unrealistic. And so really look at the expectations that you have set for yourself and really look at the expectations that the organization or the system has set and, and then answer the question.
We sort of get this feedback like, I'm not meeting the expectation will, my first question is, are you, because we tend to be perfectionists, we tend to be, um, people pleasers. We, we tend to be caretakers, and so that typically means that we are setting higher expectations for ourselves and our systems play into it too, meaning like healthcare systems, agency systems.
We tend to take that a little bit higher, but I really want people to like challenge that. Is that the actual realistic expectation? Are you truly gonna get fired if this doesn't happen? If yes, then then do what you need to do. But I want people to like really answer that question because, Good enough is good enough.
It doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to be right. And so like to really approach systems that way because you know, the system's gonna keep on systeming whether or not you're there. And that's a hard pill to swallow because we wanna think that we wanna be integral in the system, but systems are gonna survive.
And so you very unfortunately have to look at that expectation. First one, is it realistic? And then two, is it, is it compatible with your health situation? And so, yeah, that's what I would tell people. So, you know, acceptance for the individual expectations for, um, if you're in a system setting.
Yeah, I really, really love that.
Cause I think a question to maybe a, that you could ask people to kind of help them, uh, reflect on that is if you do overwork yourself day in and day night for this. for the system. We already know what's gonna happen to you, but are you actually going to be rewarded for this? Right? Like we all kind of, you know, we all wanna work hard and get the a plus, but what happens when you've worked, you've studied all night long and the test was literally designed for you to get a c plus or a B minus.
Yes,
absolutely. Like you grades on tests don't matter because you can never predict what the test the tester is doing. And so all you can do is just do the best that you can and then to let go of the rest. And, and again, that's a hard one because particularly for women, we've been sort of conditioned to please whoever, like, you know, that's typically a part of our, our.
Upbringing is to, you know, do the right thing, be kind, smile, all of that. And so it's really a, another like sort of hoop that is women we have to jump through for that. And I wanna challenge people to say like, is it, and what cost? Cuz there's always a cost, right? Like it is always a cost. And so if you, and if you look at that and you say, yeah, I need that, I need that affirmation right now from someone else and it's worth that cost to me.
Like cool, keep it trucking. Yeah. Do always do you But ask the question first. That's what I tell folks. Ask the question first. Whatever the answer is, we will, we will accommodate. That's totally fine. You need to be like held up in high regard and people praise you. Like okay of course you need that. We all need that.
That feels great. Yep. At the cost. Cuz it always comes at a cost and you got it. You gotta choose that cost.
I love that. This is so good. Um, Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. So you have a CE that you present. Do you present that like at certain times? Does, can anybody sign up for this? How do, how do people, um, therapists find this?
We, we don't
have the 20, 23 dates yet. Um, so we are hoping, obviously because we're both Pune, we would, we would love to be able to have this recorded and stuff. We did it live the last time. We'll probably, as you know, we can't do. Asynchronous. So I think what we'll probably do is to do an asynchronous portion and then offer the ethics portion live.
So we don't have those dates yet. Okay. Um, they'll be on my website as soon as I get 'em, which is www.therapisttothelethenumbertwotherapist.com. I guess I don't even need to say the www anymore. showing Nope. Therapist, therapist dot therapist to therapist.com. I I'm like what's that social media platform?
are you on Social pub? Um, professionally, I
am. It's therapist to therapist library.com. . I really just wanna have lots and lots of resources for people, for therapists, for clinicians. Um, my private practice is petco counseling.com. So I see clients there. I we're in a pause right now, but I do have a spoony support group.
Okay. And, um, and so that will start back up again in February and great. So if anyone's interested in that. So if you're a clinician, you know, wants some support and some help, again, just short on time and energy, whatever that means for people, if that's chronic illness, great. If that's a D H D, great. If that's autism great.
Like what, whatever it is. And so, um, that would be the therapist to therapist.com and then, but if your client wanting to work on some, some help, it would be petco counseling.com.
That's awesome. Yeah, I'll link those in the show notes. Um, and then I also, I'm not sure if you've seen my emails, um, but I have a free consult group for therapists.
Yes. So therapists who are listening. Yeah. And it's not just for Georgia therapist. So if you're listening and you just want either to come once and consult, maybe you're just a therapist who, um, you don't specialize, but maybe you just have like a client with chronic illness cuz you know 60% of the population has it.
Right . So you're, you're likely going to have a client with chronic illness. Um, please feel free to join that group. Just get on my email list as a therapist. Just email me destiny destiny winters.com and I'll get you on that email list and I just send the zoom link out every month. Um, so you show up, don't show up.
Whatever feels helpful.
So that's awesome. And just for like, uh, spoony clinicians out there, like this is like a great way to consult but also to like network. Cuz I don't do things unless they serve two purposes. We don't have the time or energy for that. So like, Not only are you connecting and challenging the isolation with this consult group, but also your networking and building up referral sources and you're getting consultation like so many good things about a consultation group
So thank you for offering that. That's fantastic.
Yes, and I debated, but um, I really, I, I, cuz I know some people are kind of, They have boundaries around, like whether you're fully licensed or prelicensed. Please, if you're prelicensed or even an intern, you're welcome. Um, we had an intern last last month and she asked some really great questions and it really, the conversation was just
great.
So I love it. Yeah, I love it. I, I supervise a lot. It's one of my favorite, favorite things to do. So whether they're, I used to do it at the hospital when they were still getting their masters, and then also like outside of it. It's like, I, I love it. I love, I'm so passionate about new clinicians, and, but you're right.
Like I'm like, they're bringing all of this book knowledge. Like, I graduated in 2007, like, I don't know, I don't know these new theories. You bring me the book knowledge, I'll give you the stuff that unfortunately you can't learn from books. It's the perfect trade off. And let's
be real, they bring us the social media knowledge too.
I know, right?
Because, you know, I can't do it. I'm still over here like www . I need my, I need my supervises to correct me on that.
Oh my gosh. Absolutely.
That's awesome. , this has been so wonderful, Jennifer. Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks
so much for doing this. It was so great finding your podcast and, and listening to it and being able to just connect asynchronously with other clinicians who, who have to also deal with chronic illness.
So thank you for what you do and put out there.
Yeah.
Episode Summary and Notes
Meet Jennifer Hama: Counselor, Supervisor, and Self-Help Author in the Making: Jennifer Hama's career in counseling began in 2007, marking the start of a journey that would lead her down a path of personal and professional growth. With a deep passion for helping others, she quickly found her footing in this ever-evolving field.
In 2010, Jennifer took on the role of supervising clinicians, sharing her knowledge and expertise with those entering the world of counseling. This experience allowed her to develop a unique metatheoretical model, a framework she employs both with patients and supervisees to this day. Her dedication has extended beyond the therapy room, as she's currently working on transforming her model into a self-help book, aiming to make her insights accessible to a wider audience.
A Counselor's Journey Through Different Levels of Care
Jennifer's journey in counseling has taken her through various levels of care, providing her with a diverse range of experiences. She began her career at a prominent psychiatric hospital in Atlanta, where she worked tirelessly, gaining invaluable insights into the mental health field. Over a decade, she embraced different roles, including serving as the director of multiple programs within the hospital.
During her time at the hospital, Jennifer also launched her private practice, an endeavor that would later become her main focus. However, the demands of her directorial position and the challenges of juggling both roles eventually took a toll. Recognizing the need to prioritize her well-being, she made the difficult decision to step down from her hospital directorship.
Jennifer's transition allowed her to start a family while still maintaining her connection to counseling, thanks to a part-time position that offered her crucial insurance coverage—a significant consideration for someone dealing with chronic illness.
The Challenge of Chronic Illness and Its Impact
Jennifer identifies as a "spoonie," a term used by those with chronic illnesses to describe the limited amount of energy (or "spoons") they have each day. Her personal experiences with chronic illness have given her a unique perspective, both as a counselor and an individual navigating her health challenges.
Working with patients who faced both chronic mental and physical illnesses, Jennifer gained insights into the difficulties of navigating the healthcare system while dealing with chronic conditions. Despite her initial reluctance to seek a diagnosis due to family medical history, she eventually found answers and understood the importance of advocating for one's health.
Jennifer's experiences have also shaped her understanding of the need to address the intersection of chronic illness and mental health, an area where empathy and acceptance are crucial. She acknowledges the impact of internalized ableism and the importance of self-compassion when managing her health challenges.
The Complex Journey of Seeking a Diagnosis
Jennifer's journey to diagnosis was marked by skepticism and resistance. She initially believed that doctors wouldn't provide answers or solutions, mirroring her mother's experience with chronic illness. However, it was a therapist who encouraged her to seek a diagnosis, highlighting the need for a healthcare system that takes chronic illnesses seriously.
Jennifer's journey mirrors the experiences of many individuals who face medical gaslighting, disbelief, and a lack of support within the healthcare system. Her story underscores the importance of advocating for oneself and seeking a healthcare provider who understands and supports those with chronic conditions.
Empathy and Support in the Face of Chronic Illness
Navigating chronic illness while being a mother adds another layer of complexity to Jennifer's life. In a society where childcare support is limited, she emphasizes the importance of self-care and challenges the stigma surrounding parenthood and chronic illness.
Jennifer's experiences have led her to cultivate empathy for her clients who face similar challenges. She recognizes the significance of accepting the limitations imposed by chronic illness while continuing to seek the support and care needed to lead a fulfilling life.
The Empathy Connection
Jennifer's discussion emphasizes the need for healthcare professionals, including therapists and doctors, to prioritize empathy, active listening, and effective communication. She refers to her experience attending a training on Motivational Interviewing (MI), highlighting its potential to reconnect healthcare providers with empathy.
The Importance of Quality of Life
Jennifer underscores the importance of focusing on improving the quality of life for individuals with chronic illnesses. Chronic illnesses often require lifelong management, and learning to accept and adapt to this reality can be a transformative journey. She encourages the incorporation of joy, laughter, and enjoyment into life, as these elements contribute to overall well-being.
Breaking the Ableism Stigma
A critical aspect of Jennifer's work is challenging and dismantling ableism, a pervasive issue in society that often leads to the dismissal of individuals with chronic illnesses. The misconception that only those who appear constantly unwell are truly sick perpetuates the ableism stigma. Jennifer urges a shift in perspective, emphasizing that individuals can experience moments of joy and fun despite their health challenges without undermining the validity of their conditions.
Conclusion: Jennifer Hama's journey as a professional counselor and "spoonie" offers a unique perspective on the world of counseling and chronic illness. Her experiences highlight the need for empathy, support, and understanding in both personal and professional contexts. Jennifer's ongoing work in counseling and her upcoming self-help book promise to provide valuable insights and guidance to those navigating the intersection of mental health and chronic illness. Her story serves as a reminder that with determination and self-compassion, one can thrive despite the challenges posed by chronic conditions.