Rest, Resistance, and Advocacy: Navigating the Complexities of Chronic Illness Through Art and Community Support
Rowan Crawfish is a counselor and art therapist based in Georgia, offering person-centered and empowerment-based counseling for diverse populations. She specializes in social justice work, trauma processing, advocacy, and uses a range of techniques, including art therapy, mindfulness, and somatic therapies. As a 2SLGBTQIA+, chronically ill and disabled, fat, neurodivergent, secular therapist, she strives to provide an inclusive and judgment-free environment for individuals of all sexual identities, genders, abilities, races, ages, and body sizes. Whether you’re struggling with body image, living with chronic illness or pain, or just need support navigating life’s challenges, she’s here to help. No experience in art is needed to work with Rowan.
Find Rowan’s therapy information here.
Find Rowan’s personal creative endeavors on her etsy shop here.
I interviewed Rowan on The Chronic Illness Therapist Podcast about her work with chronically ill and neurodivergent folks who find themselves without hope and with high levels of anxiety and/or depression.
Rowan shares that a lot of her work with clients is around “making invisible illnesses visible and showing doctors what symptoms look like and feel like… moving away from the zero to 10 pain scale, and giving people an opportunity to really express what the inside feels like” is an important aspect of the therapeutic work.
What is Photo Art Therapy?
Photo Art Therapy is based on the idea that taking pictures of something important in your life and then using words to describe the emotional impact of that photograph can “contribute to the development of [relationship] skills, manage behavior, and increase self-esteem and self-awareness.” (source)
Rowan likes to use Pixlr or Photoshop with clients to help them create collages that put their words and experiences into a visual representation. While this particular modality isn’t accessible to people who have low vision or are Blind, it is accessible to people who “have a hard time navigating tools for [other] fine art [modalities],” Rowan says.
Sometimes people utilize photos from hospital stays, medical procedures, MRIs, and more. This beautifully captures our experiences as people in the medical system who often feel unheard, unseen, dismissed, and even gaslit by the very people who are supposed to be taking care of us.
“It really gives people an opportunity to show what they’re feeling every day, what parts of their bodies are affected, and what their daily experience living with [their condition] is like.”
Another technique she often uses is a body scan. She says, “Sometimes we do body scans where we walk through all the feelings and sensations [one is experiencing] and then we create textures and colors and images to show where all those sensations are on the body. And then everybody [in the support group I run] gets to share [about their experience]. We [explore] things like worst symptom days, best symptom days, [etc.].”
Decolonizing therapy
Rowan’s approach to therapy is one that is anti-oppressive.
Decolonizing Therapy is the book title and a term coined by Jennifer Mullan, a highly influential speaker and organizational consultant who has been teaching us all about the impact that colonialism has had on our field of mental health.
For example, did you know that in many states, attempting suicide is against the law? That means that if someone attempts suicide and survives, they can technically be arrested and jailed. That’s incredibly disturbing, in my professional opinion. If someone no longer wants to be alive, they need help and support; not incarceration.
By examining the historical context and current manifestations of colonialism, we can begin to understand the systemic issues that perpetuate inequality and marginalization within therapy.
are some of the leading voices in this area, so please follow their work if you want to learn more.
Rowan shares, “I'll often help clients see where the systems are at play so that they can better advocate for themselves. [We work on] actively breaking down systems of oppression in their day-to-day.”
In the interview, we also acknowledge that we as therapists must be highly aware of how colonialism, white supremacy, and racism show up in our theories, beliefs, and policies.
For example, our Western psychology theories completely neglect cultural context and often pathologize very normal and reasonable cultural practices.
Additionally, our mental health diagnoses continue to be discriminatory, especially to marginalized groups, and having a diagnosis usually incurs unreasonable consequences, like being denied private health insurance and/or being sent to mental institutions claiming to “help and rehabilitate” but usually end up doing more psychological and financial harm than good. (NOTE: Residential mental health facilities CAN be life-saving, but this is very context-dependent).
Additionally, our field tends to demonize any methods of healing that indigenous people rely on until some researcher decides to “study” the method and “validates” that the method works. It’s only after a caucasian researcher deems the method “valid, reliable, and safe” that it becomes part of mainstream methods. To make matters worse, these researchers often just pretend they created the modality and never credit their indigenous peers and predecessors.
Western psychology is built off of the idea that everyone should be able to individually create success in their lives no matter their situation, yet Western policies and practices also make this near impossible for the typical disabled person.
Rowan explains, “for every intersectionality you have, your experience in the medical care system is [likely] to be worse. So [we have to] acknowledge these things [in therapy by helping] people with advocacy and letters [when applicable, to help clients advocate for themselves].”
“One of the biggest ways we can start to deconstruct [colonial-style therapy] is to move away from [individualistic pursuits] [and to do things] like rest more, reach out to people more, and be yourself as much as you can. [We] absolutely [need to] do less, put the bar on the floor, just throw the bar in the trash.”
And I couldn’t agree more.
The Truth About Self-Advocacy
I know first hand how hard it is to advocate for yourself with doctors.
Self-advocacy is a tricky topic because we shouldn’t have to advocate for ourselves, but we unfortunately do. It’s important to remember that there is a built-in power differential with your doctor, meaning they have the power to withhold treatments, medications, and lab work. I have heard stories about doctors firing patients for asking the doctor to “please document in my chart that you’re refusing to order X lab at my request.”
Doctors aren’t evil or bad people, they’re just as stressed out, in debt, and overworked as anyone else. They do unpaid work constantly because insurance denies claims frequently for the smallest little mistake (that wasn’t even really a mistake) in paperwork.
A lot of patients don’t know this, but doctors, therapists, and other insurance-based medical professionals can even be required by insurance companies to pay the insurance companies back money that the insurance company already paid out to the clinician. The insurance company can simply send a letter saying something like, “We paid you for these 15 visits, thousands of dollars, but now we’ve decided we are no longer paying for that service code, and you must pay us back.” Not paying the insurance company back has serious consequences for the clinician.
So now that we’ve laid out what the playing field looks like for doctors, we can start to understand just one of the many reasons that doctors easily move into their power stance when they feel their own threat response turned on.
With that said, we still need to advocate for ourselves. We just have to be kind, patient, and strategic, as unfair as that may be. And that’s why having a therapist to help you through this can be so critical.
Self-Advocacy Tips
Remember that your doctor isn’t an all-knowing being. They’re human, just like me and you. They have a decade or more of schooling and experience to help them make educated decisions about health, but they’re not magicians. When you take your doctor off a pedestal, you’ll see that they 1) want to help 2) might not know how to navigate getting “stuck” and 3) respond better to direct, kind, and clear communication - not passive communication, and not aggressive communication (although sometimes getting aggressive does get us escalated to someone with more power, and then we get our needs met. Unfortunate, but true.)
Rowan likes to remind people, that “if somebody doesn't have the answer and they don't know how to say, ‘I don't know,’ and instead they gaslight you or make you feel like you're wrong about your body, then it’s time to look for somebody else.” We know that it can be incredibly hard to find new doctors, and that this advice doesn’t work for everyone, but it’s still worth noting that if you have the option to change doctors, then it’s worth trying.
“Trusting yourself and trusting your body and not letting somebody shake that intuitive knowledge that you have [is so important]”
Write a letter to practice what you want to say and how you want to say it.
Rowan’s Art Therapy support groups can help you with this if you don’t know where to start. The purpose of the letter isn’t for you to say verbatim to your doctor during a visit (although maybe sometimes that would actually be appropriate). The goal of letter-writing and art-making is to get more and more comfortable with self-advocacy, to practice it before the main event happens.
Body Scan - body scanning helps you to familiarize yourself with the often uncomfortable sensations in your body.
This familiarity helps you verbalize your experience better, so that your doctor hears clarity. Doctors tend to become really frustrated by vague language from patients. A body scan not only helps you feel more attuned to your body and it’s needs, it also helps you in your relationship with your doctor.
Expressive art-making - using artistic techniques
Rowan likes to use a lot of photography, music, and dance to help clients express their pain and move into their trust and fullest selves.
Pacing and taking a break
Even in your rushed doctor’s appointment, pausing when you need to could be incredibly helpful. You’ll likely have to remind your doctor that you’re not done, but that you need more time to get your words out. Yes, they might get visibly impatient, but that’s where your work in therapy will come in handy. Learning how to say what you need to say regardless of the other person’s emotions and responses is incredibly empowering.
Share art
Rowan encourages us to not only make art for the sake of processing emotions but to also make art for the sake of sharing it with others. Whether that’s sharing through selling your art or through gifting it to friends and family, making and sharing art is a beautiful way to connect with your community on a deeper level. And if you feel called, the profits you make from selling can go towards medical bills, charity, or donating in another way that makes you feel good and useful.
Rowan shares her adorable crocheted stuffed animals here on her Etsy shop.
Community and Support Groups
I first learned about Rowan after hearing about her support group offers, and I was instantly blown away. It’s been my experience that starting and running groups is difficult, but highly rewarding when it works. So I was incredibly thankful to see the niched groups that Rowan has running.
She runs these amazing groups virtually, through Live Well Savannah, and they’re available to anyone in any state/country:
A Chronic Illness Empowerment Group
A Neurodivergent Support Group
A C-PTSD Group
And a body image group
“I’ve created a group for all of my populations [so that] if you don’t want to find community by yourself, or it’s too hard to find community by yourself, or you’re too tired to find community by yourself, [these groups are already here for you.]”
While support groups don’t really take the place of in-real-life community support, Rowan explains, “Why don't you try to meet these people and just start here and see how it goes? And then we can at least model what community looks like before you take your own independent steps that way.”
When we talk about decolonizing therapy, the core of our work turns into building community. Rowan says, “In a lot of the work we’re doing, we aren’t able to dismantle a whole lot, which can feel a little hopeless. But not doing it alone is a [big] part of dismantle work.”
Remember - colonialism thrives off of who can get to the top the fastest. This type of mindset inherently requires doing things alone, tearing others down, and getting to the top, where you will again be alone. Learning to rely on one another is the very antithesis of colonialism.
Pacing
Another things that colonialism thrives off of is being super productive as often as possible. A normal amount of productivity is a healthy and important aspect of any society, so we don’t want to pathologize being productive, just like we don’t want to pathologize resting, which is what our society has done.
That’s why we talk so much about “pacing and not going through the boom/bust cycle [with our energy], if you can avoid it.” Rowan advocates for taking lots of breaks and being honest with ourselves about where we’re at with our pain, our energy, and our capabilities. For example, neither Rowan or I believe it’s wise to go from barely walking for six months to trying to take a hike. Instead, we’d make the goal to be getting out of bed every day, then walking to our mailbox every day, then to the end of the street, and so forth.
As your body adjusts and build capacity, you can do more. But even as you gain the ability to accomplish more, we still want to be mindful (not fearful, but mindful) about what our bodies want to do and can handle without a huge backlash, which usually comes in the form of a flare up.
In our work with clients, we talk a lot about our values and what kinds of lives we want to live. Figuring this out means putting the end-goals away (like going for a hike) and figuring out WHY hiking is so important to you. Maybe it’s for the fresh air, maybe it’s for time to yourself, maybe it’s for movement and enjoyment, or maybe for socializing.
Your reason for wanting to take a hike is so much more important than the actual end-goal of taking a hike, because we can’t always control what our bodies will let us do. But we can invite the things and people we love into our lives and asking people to meet us where we’re at, rather than trying to push ourselves to meet other people’s capacities.
And btw, rest can look so different for each of us. As a mom of two kids and working full time, my rest breaks often include
Noise-canceling headphones
Closing my eyes for 5 minutes
Allowing myself to numb out with scrolling and/or TV
Taking a walk with no music/podcast
And more
These small moments add up throughout the day to help us get through each hour. I talk more about the different types of rest in this podcast here.
Pro tip: always meet yourself where you’re at with learning any new skill, including rest.
If you can’t sit in silence without thinking about what you need to do on your to-do list, that's fine for now. Write down the list, don’t keep it in your head. And over time, you’re going to figure out how to rest more peacefully. At first, it might not be the most restful rest, but this is a skill you will hone over time.
“Autonomy is a huge pillar of the way that I practice. And if you don’t want to do something, you don’t have to. [If] you don’t want to talk about something you don’t have to. This is your space, your time. You’re driving the bus. I’m just here to support.”
Rowan offers therapy for folks who live in Georgia and support groups for anyone in any state. Learn more here.
Listen to the full podcast episode with Rowan Crawfish here.
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Destiny Winters LPC CRC: All right, Lauren, thank you so much for [00:01:00] being here this morning. Um, I would love to learn a little bit more about where you are. Who you work with and we can kind of start there.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Sure. Um, so I'm in Savannah, Georgia, and I work with a lot of neurodiverse folks, chronically ill folks, LGBTQ folks, um, people who are interested in like fat liberation work.
Um, those are like my big niche areas and I do talk therapy as well as art therapy.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: I'm really looking forward to talking about art therapy. We've had a few episodes around art therapy, but. Um, I don't know. I'm just so fascinated by it. Are you an art therapist? Like you're licensed that way or yeah. Okay.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: So I'm a clinical, I'm a clinical mental health counselor and art therapist. Amazing. .
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: And you specifically like to work with phototherapy and you have a group around this, right?
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Yeah. So I do a lot of like, uh, regular, regular art therapy, but yes, I do phototherapy as well. It's actually what my thesis was on. [00:02:00] Um, and my group is based on like creating hope, um, for people who have chronic illness and reducing depression and anxiety through phototherapy. Um, a lot of it is around.
making invisible illnesses visible and showing doctors what symptoms look like and feel like and moving away from this like zero to 10 pain scale, um, and giving people an opportunity to like, really like express what the inside feels like. Um, and those groups usually run like 10 to 15 sessions and they keep like rebooting over and over.
So.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: That sounds really cool. Can you explain what phototherapy is for people who don't know? Sure.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Um, so it can be done like a myriad of ways, but the way that I do it the most is we use like a free app called like
or people could use Photoshop if they have that and we create like essentially like photo collage so you can use like pictures you've already taken, um, images that are like on your computer or stock photos you can draw and like upload those in.
And then I teach the skills to like use tools to make them one big cohesive [00:03:00] image.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: That's really cool. Um, and I like what you said. It's moving, kind of helps you move away from the pain scale moving into what does this actually feel like? Cause what is a number to pain? I don't, I don't understand. Um, so can you talk to me a little bit more about that?
Like the process or what would someone want to know if they were, you know, calling you being like, I really want to know what this is and how this helps. And yeah, what this looks like.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Sure. So photo therapy is great for people who might have like mobility issues or have a hard time navigating like tools for like fine art, um, a lot.
And you know, you only really need like basic computer skills. Um, I wish I could show you an example, but it really like, so I've had clients who have a lot of images they took in hospital stays or during medical procedures, like upload all of those and like put them into one cohesive image where like their MRIs are like transposed onto like their face or like things like that.
And like really being able to like show what they feel like. Um, [00:04:00] sometimes we even add sound. So like I've had clients, you know, be able to go to the doctor and be like, this feels like. Like nails going down a chalkboard or this feels like, you know, what this looks like, what does the texture look like?
What is the, like, what is the, like, what does it feel like? So we're not just like, oh yeah, it's an eight because chronically ill people, like our pain scales are totally different. We get used to it. So it's not like our eights are very different than like anybody else's eight. So, um, it really gives people an opportunity to like, show what they're, feeling every day and like what parts of their bodies are affected and like what their like daily experience living with that is like.
Um, so sometimes we do like body scans where we walk through like all the feelings and sensations and then we create like textures and colors and images to show where all those sensations are like on the body. Um, and then like everybody gets to share, like, we do like worst symptom days, best symptom days.
We do what, uh, think of the worst thing a doctor has said to you and like make a collage about that. Think of the best thing a doctor has [00:05:00] said to you and make a collage about that. Like, you know, and just like all different kinds of prompts, um, to kind of just like really validate people's like lived experience in the medical.
So
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: I, I want to join this group. You're more than welcome. I love that. And is this, is this therapy or is it a support group? Like for people listening,
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: it's technically a support group. Um, so every group I run as a support group, um, so that they are accessible nationwide. Amazing. Amazing.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Um, I'm still like, I'm just imagining this collage.
Like, And I've seen collage work before, but I don't know the way you just described all that feels really powerful.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Yeah. So just to kind of give you a little bit more imagery, um, my spouse had a stroke and was sent home with the stroke because the people in, uh, Savannah, it was They weren't taking good care of this, my spouse.
[00:06:00] Um, so they ended up doing a collage because somebody said to them, I think you should see an ophthalmologist instead of giving them an MRI for their stroke. So the collage was titled, I think you should go see an ophthalmologist. And it had the board with this doctor's name on it and their MRI showing the stroke and like a picture of them in the hospital.
And it was just like, like the perfect capture of like that moment for them. Um, and I, and I had them walk, do these collages and then, you know, I use them as examples for a lot of people. Like you can capture those moments where you're just like, you can't even make this up kind of moments and like really put that into like an image for people to like, see,
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: that is incredible.
I can just feel how that would be one. So validating, right? That's what a lot of us struggle with is. There is no validation. And people talk about like, I actually, I hate the whole like, love yourself first. You have to love yourself or no one will. I think that's complete bullshit, but what a way to self validate, um, without it feeling [00:07:00] forced or without it feeling like, um, like lofty and like, Pie in the sky kind of thing.
It's very tangible and very powerful.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Yeah. And in like my group, like you can be mad. You can talk shit about all of your medical professionals. You can like rage against the system while you want, because like any chronic illness counselor is going to understand, like it, that's what it is. And like, that's okay.
Like we don't always have to be like rainbows and sunshines about it. Like that's, you know, we can meet you where you're at and then hopefully make you feel better over time to the best degree that we're able. But like, It, there's a lot of space for like those big feelings because it is aggravating and it's not fair.
And, you know,
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: I know I was just, I was just reading, um, what, what is, do you, what, what is your take on dbt?
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Um, I'm a, I do neuro affirming dbt. Okay. In a way that is like inclusive and feels better. Um, but that's like the really only [00:08:00] realm I work with it in. I don't do it in any other capacity.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah. I was just, I don't know, I was on Pinterest or something and like the Raven technique came up.
So, and I was reading through, I like, I try to keep an open mind about some like non sematic approaches. Cause, and people on this podcast know I'm like, Anti CBT, anti like, and it's because of that, and sorry, I'm like going to explain this a little bit more, um, because a lot of like more and more recently I've been getting a little bit, uh, more comfortable with kind of that thought reframing.
And I realized there's a lot of room and space for that. That can be really helpful, but I think historically it just has been used as a way to kind of make people conform. Right. And just think the way that the majority thinks. And so I was looking at this, this Raven skill popped up for dbt and it's like, relax, you know, take a deep breath, et cetera.
Avoid negative habits, meaning like discounting yourself or other people or withdrawing, whatever. Validate, examine your [00:09:00] values. I'm like, okay, great, great, great. Let me get to add. And it's like neutral voice, keep anger out of your voice. And I was like, what? What are you supposed to do with that anger? It just blew my mind.
So yeah, maybe we can go into that concept a little bit.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Yeah, no, I mean, I'm also really anti CBT. Um, don't get me wrong. Like there's a couple of skills that are like, okay, that we could like pull out sometimes, but like, it is the last resort for anyone, but, um, no, like not even just with my chronically ill clients, just with like my clients across the board, like we make space for anger.
I don't know how you couldn't, especially in like the country we live in, the world we live in. Like we find ways to like express anger. You want to go throw plates in your backyard safely, go throw plates in your backyard, punch your pillow, like really aggressively scribble into a book, yell in your car, scream to loud music.
Like. It's anger is a healthy emotion. And it's usually telling you something. Um, and it's usually that you've experienced some kind of injustice. Um, at least in a lot of different scenarios. So no, we [00:10:00] welcome anger.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yes. What might that look like? Maybe you can kind of conjure this up for yourself. Like what might anger look like on paper, like through phototherapy, or you can bring in any of the other art elements that you use, like,
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Sure.
Um, one of the interventions that comes to my mind immediately is I do this one where you get a black pastel and a red pastel, or you can do any colors, but those are just the use. And like, cause pastels are really smooshy and like malleable and you like really just like, like run into the paper, like as many times as you can and you push away from you.
So you can like really get that like feeling out. So it's like kind of like art therapy meets somatics a little Um, and sometimes they're bringing the semantics, but for collages, like people You can do like different colors that you associate with anger, different imagery you associate with anger and like putting it on top of like your, whatever, whatever you're working on.
Um, but I really think like the, like the drawing and like the, being able to like move your body, like [00:11:00] bilateral drawings really helpful for that too. Um, so like it just, it depends, I guess what people are.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: You know, the other thing too, I think about like skills or cause I'm, I, so I'm a somatic therapist and I think I get a lot of clients coming in that are like, okay, so like what somatic work are we going to do?
Because they've seen like online different somatic exercises. But for me, it doesn't really work that way. So I'm going to be curious to know what your experience is. Like, it doesn't work like, okay, come in. We're going to do this skill to target this feeling and this emotion. And now you're going to be good to go.
It's more like when we're talking and I'm noticing emotion come up or I'm noticing that, and then I'm noticing you suppress it. I might invite you to notice it a little bit more and then help you ground through that and then notice it some more. And so it really, in all honesty, a lot of times just looked like talk therapy.
How does art therapy and talk therapy integrate, if you can explain it? Like, yeah,
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: yeah. So I kind of function like you do, like I'll bring it up. Like when it seems like it's a good time [00:12:00] to bring it up. So. I have clients who don't want to do art therapy at all. And that's cool. But they're probably not in a lot of my groups because a lot of my groups are arts based.
Um, so we might just talk, we might do a little bit of somatics. We might do like whatever feels right for that person. But for the people who are open to art, like, so let's say we're talking about family and I see somebody getting activated. We might be doing like a creative family genome or we might be doing inner child work or myth.
Like it's just in the same way that you pull as it shows up. That's What I'll do with clients. Well, it looks like this is coming up for you. Why don't we try to delve deeper into that with some art based thing? And I'll offer an intervention, but people are always allowed to do whatever it is that feels the most right to them.
So
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: that makes sense. So your groups, you know, people know they're coming in and it's got an art component to it. So you probably, well, maybe, I don't know. Do you find yourself, let me rephrase. How do you work with resistance around. Art and obviously we don't force anyone to do anything and it's their choice, but can you just talk more [00:13:00] about that process and how you are kind of conceptualizing that?
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Sure. Absolutely. I've had some people who don't really feel like doing art or they don't want to, or because of some injury, maybe. They can't for now. Um, people are always welcome to sing, to make noise, to move their bodies, to write, to speak out loud. Like it's, you don't in no way, shape or form to do art.
I have some clients actually who prefer, like I give them the art intervention, they think about it and then they just speak out what they would do instead of doing it. And that's fine. Like, yeah, I just roll with whatever people, I mean, people where they are, it has nothing to do with me. So I get out of the way.
That makes perfect
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: sense. I love that. Um, and so let's maybe talk a little bit about some of your niches. You work a lot around fat liberation around chronic pain and illness. What, um, can you talk to me about your work?
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Sure. So I'm a person centered, uh, counselor. I work from like a person centered systemic lens.
I do like a decolonize style. I [00:14:00] don't label myself that way or advertise myself that way, but that's like the framework I work from. So a lot of, um, times when I'm working with clients, we'll look at like, what systems are at play here? Like, where did this come from? What is the root of this issue? Like a lot of like body liberation stuff, like A lot of people's self image, like, and like the judgment of fat bodies in this country is really rooted in racism.
So we can tie all these things together and like break it down that way. Um, so, oh, I feel like my clients get sick of me. Like I'm a broken record. Cause I'm like, oh, well, isn't that patriarchy? Oh, we're talking about capitalism now. And now we're talking about. White supremacy and like all these systems.
I'm like, so is it you or are we just existing in this space? Right. Um, so that's kind of, and I like really meet people where they're at. People can curse in sessions. People can bring their snackies, come in your pajamas. Like, I'm really just like, I will meet you where you show up and like, we're going to work on what you want to, what's next.
The most important to you. And that's like my, that's my vibe. Um, I'm also a neurodiverse counselor. I'm a disabled counselor. I'm a queer counselor. And so a lot of [00:15:00] people find me because, and a fat counselor. And so they're fitting into one of these intersectionalities. So a lot of my client base looks like my intersectionalities and I that's, those are the people I serve the most.
So
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: So, you talked a little bit about decolonizing and I know that that's not something that, you know, yeah, we don't advertise in that way or really, but that is the lens I think through both that both of us practice. And maybe we should explain that for people who are listening and what that actually means.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Sure. Um, so part of my education as a counselor is I went to a social justice based program and one of the things I really appreciated the most was the first thing they did was put us through a power, privilege and oppression course and like really highlighted like all of like the privilege and where we come from and like all these systems and everything.
So it's like, Bringing up where colonialism and capitalism and white supremacy and all of the things that built this country show up in counseling, even how the mental health field is built on the pillars [00:16:00] of these things and why we don't use a lot of the things and why some of the things in the DSM were just like, and like, just like how we function.
Like I. We'll often help clients see where the systems are at play so that they can better advocate for themselves and that like we're actively breaking down systems of oppression and like they're able to do that in their day to day. Um, So it's really just a framework of like being very aware of where like colonialism and white supremacy and racism and all, like all of these different facets, like the patriarchy and capitalism that come into play all the time and how we navigate those things.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah. Do you find, um, any resistance around that where when you're trying to like explain this stuff clients, even not resistance, like they don't believe what you're saying, but just like, it's so hard to remove their own internalized stuff.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Um, most of my clients, like we can acknowledge that it's hard for them to remove their stuff, but they are aware of that.
Like they [00:17:00] can see it. And like, it just is going to take time. Um, and when I do my intake sessions, I introduce myself in this way. And I really go over like how, like my style of counseling and that I know that I'm not for everybody, but if you want to hang in and do the work, then like, you know, I even have some people seeing me to help deconstruct some internalized ideas that they have.
And so.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah. Yeah. So they're pretty aware. They just now need the tools to get past it. And that's where things like phototherapy or art therapy in general can be so powerful. You see it on paper rather than just the thoughts in your head.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Yeah. And I think like, especially working with chronically ill people, like, like, People who are chronically ill see this, but like for every intersectionality you have, like your experience in the medical care system is going to be worse.
And so like, you can't not acknowledge these things when you're walking through that system. Um, and so a lot of times I will help people with advocacy and letters and like how to [00:18:00] navigate these systems and like, It's hard. It's really hard. Like my spouse is like a fat bypass, um, non binary, like every intersectionality that you can be, like they are.
And like the way that they're treated in the hospital system is just horrific. And so, you know, it's just. It is one of the big passion points of mine is to like help people navigate those systems and to like deal with the day to day like frustrations and, and hardships that that causes people.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Can you talk to what some of those self advocacy efforts look like?
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Sure. So sometimes I'll help clients create like a, a letter that they can bring to doctor's appointments or like, I'm so and so these are the conditions I have. This is what I need from you. Um, in order for me to be a patient here and keep the power in your court, I don't have to be a patient here. Um, and that's the thing.
And also like remembering that like you pay these people, remembering that doctors are people who went [00:19:00] to school just like us. They're not gods. They're not magicians. They're not anything like they, they literally went to school just like all of us did. And they're good at whatever, some of them at whatever they specialize in.
And You know, they're not, not all these all knowing beings. And if somebody doesn't have the answer and they don't know how to say, I don't know. And instead they gaslight you or make you feel like you're wrong about your body. Okay. Well then it's time to look for somebody else. Like we, you know, and just like trusting yourself and trusting your body and like not letting somebody shake that, that intuitive knowledge that you have.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah. What do you think about self advocacy? Um, that's a hard one for me because it's like, we shouldn't have to. And yet we do. So I'm just curious if you can speak to that a little bit.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: It is really hard because we definitely shouldn't have to. I often have these like daydreams of like, can we create a service where somebody can like tag along and like help people?
And like, Um, sometimes I'll offer [00:20:00] like case management where, you know, if you need help making appointments or maybe you don't, you have a hard time being on the phone or you need help navigating like your medical bills or you need help, like, we'll talk about that and see if we can like get a case manager to help with those things.
Or do you have a friend who can help with these things or is there somebody? So like we, I really do help people explore, like, can we create a team around you that can help you navigate? Cause it shouldn't all be on, it shouldn't all be on us. Um, and we shouldn't have to advocate for ourselves at all. But then we also have to acknowledge the reality of the situation, which is unfortunately, as it stands, we do.
So how can we navigate those systems when we have to kind of thing?
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah. So one thing that people can do is write a letter and maybe like art therapy techniques would then would be before that even happens to get them clear on what it is this letter might even say is that, is that, Accurate.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Yeah.
Sometimes I encourage people to like do a body scan with me and then like use like colors and textures and things like show all the different body systems that [00:21:00] are being affected. So when you walk into the doctor, like they can have a whole body image of what is happening. Cause a lot of times like doctors will get fixated on like one symptom you said, and then you're going down a rabbit hill.
That's not important to you. Yeah. Um, and like, I encourage clients to bring this with them to show them and like, you know, really, you know, allow the doctor to like communicate and just be like, I want to have open communication about how I'm feeling and how my body feels. And I want like to feel better as to whatever capacity that's I'm able to.
Um, and I also want to make sure we're addressing all these different areas. And so I like, I encourage clients to do that as well.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: I think that's amazing. Um, and if a doctor isn't open to like, Seeing it, or they make you feel stupid for bringing it. At least you have it there so that you can remember what it is you're talking about.
Um, yeah. And then maybe we can look into other doctors. Yes, I agree. Yeah. That's so powerful. That's just what I keep coming back to. This work is so powerful. [00:22:00] Wow. And it like, we're talking about power differentials and I think that's the whole point, right? It puts the power back in your court. Um, yeah.
Whether you're in a doctor's office or just in your own body, cause we can feel powerless to what our bodies are doing.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: And even just being in like a support group for chronic conditions, like just having other people understand. Um, obviously all genders are welcome in my group, but it just so happens that it's mostly women most of the time. And it's like a lot of times like this, like, Just having other like people who understand your lived experience.
And like, because there are like a lot of conditions, especially for women and people assigned female at birth that are just like, like categorizes hysteria or just completely disregarded and whatever. And just to have a whole group of people being like, no, this is obviously a lived experience for all of us.
And we all understand what this is like is like half of it. It's like community, community is really important. [00:23:00]
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah. Can we talk a little bit about that? And, um, I'm sure themes around like family dysfunction or just, um, you know, the inability to rely on your family, I'm sure that comes up. As well. And, um, what does it look like to start to build community?
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Yeah.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Like within groups are for clients, generally clients generally. Um, and then if group plays a part in that, you can speak to that.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Yeah. So I always really encourage clients to look at like Joining groups that are based on their interests or based on their lived experiences or based on their intersectionalities Um in our city, there's some really great like groups being built around like different intersectionalities now Which is really helpful for people.
Um, but if I have a client who's like reporting that they're isolated or they're having a hard time, like I run a CPTSD group. So for people who have family history and want to process together, like we do that, it's an art and music based [00:24:00] group. So we process childhood attachment trauma to, um, late nineties, early two thousands, like emo punk music and make art.
Um, and then, uh, you know, like I have a neurodiverse affirming group, I have a chronic support group. So it just, it's. convenient that I'm able to, like, I've created a group for all of my populations so that I can be like, look, if you don't want to find community by yourself, or it's too hard to find community by yourself, or you're too tired to find community by yourself.
Why don't you try to meet these people and just start here and see how that goes. And then we can just at least model what community looks like before. Maybe you take your own independent steps that way.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: If someone doesn't know which group to join, because it's They might fit into a couple or they're just not sure what do you do consultations?
Is that something someone could call and say like what am I? Or would it be more like call, book an initial appointment with you and then you might guide them towards a group.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: So I can totally guide somebody to a group like with our free like 15 minute [00:25:00] consultations we do. You definitely don't need to establish like care as an individual client before you join groups.
Um, and for clients, it just depends. Like I will ask what your like financial situation is because I don't want anything to ever be burdensome to anybody. Um, at least to the degree that I'm able to control that. Um, and we'll just prioritize what is the most important to you. And if you want to try each of them, you can do that and see what's comfortable.
Like I'm just, I'm very flexible with people to make things work for whatever people need.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Which gives again, that choice autonomy, um, allowing to dip your toe in rather than, Nope, you've got to do this and stick and commit to it.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Autonomy is a huge pillar of the way that I practice. And if you don't want to do something, you don't have to, you don't want to talk about something you don't have to like, it's like, this is your space, your time, you're driving the bus.
I'm just here to support.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah. What else comes up for you around this? Um, I feel like you did a really thorough job of explaining everything. [00:26:00] Um, but I'm curious what I'm leaving out and what I'm not asking.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: That's a really open question. Yeah,
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: um, cause we can
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: go
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: anywhere really.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: You know, I would just say, I like, I'm happy to see more counselors who are oriented in inclusivity and, you know, and decolonizing work and deconstructing all the systems.
And I hope that that keeps expanding. Um, and maybe I guess talk a little bit about what like inspired me to go down the path that I've chosen. Um, so I was going to work with like queer people, fight liberation people. Um, Like there are people, but people working on fat liberation, um, and neurodiverse people and CP, people with CPTSD, CPTSD is a really big one for me.
Um, for those listening, that's just complex, um, post traumatic [00:27:00] PTSD, right? So like people with like attachment trauma, um, also, but. Uh, chronic illness may not have been on like my main radar, but while I was in my master's degree, my spouse had a stroke and a lot of that, uh, happened. And then I, because I like how I watched that journey unfold, I did my thesis on the phototherapy group I created and to see if that would be helpful for folks.
And it was helpful. So I was like, Oh, like I want to do this. Um, and it became like a really big passion of mine to help people after seeing like my spouse because honestly, it just wasn't something like I was aware of, like how bad, like I knew it was bad, but I didn't know how bad it was until like I was like watching that happen and unfold.
Um, and then about a year ago I got sick, so it's just been a whole thing, but I think like watching my spouse navigate the medical system where we live. Was really like the point where I was like, no, this, these are definitely the people that I want to support the most, because this is completely absurd [00:28:00] and nobody should have to do this like alone or feel isolated in this.
So
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: I think that's such a, the biggest piece, like we're not a lot of the work we're doing, we aren't able to dismantle a whole lot, which can feel a little hopeless, but I think not doing it alone is a part of dismantle work anyway. Right. Um, Just relying on each other, right? Because in like capitalistic societies and patriarchal societies, it is about relying on one person, the head of the household, the head of the country, the head of the hospital, it's that kind of, um, vertical kind of system that we, we look up to this person at the top.
Meaning each person's like doing their own part alone. And in more communal societies, it's horizontal. We look to each other to fulfill, to fill needs and roles. So, um, that not doing it alone is such an important, necessary step before anything else can happen.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Yeah. And [00:29:00] we talk about that all the time, how like this country really wants to push this individualistic narrative and this perfectionist narrative and this productivity narrative.
And like, one of the biggest ways we can start to deconstruct is to move away from those things, like rest more, like reach out to people more, like be around folks and be yourself and like as much as you can, like, and do less. It's like, absolutely do less, but the bar on the floor, just throw the bar in the trash.
Actually. Yes.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: I'm with you there. Yeah. Rest is hard to do, but it's so important. Um, it's, I think it's important to recognize how hard, like when you start to rest, all of those internalized voices start to pop up and tell you you're doing something wrong. And that you're really not that bad and you could get up right now.
Like the second you start to feel a little bit rested, your body's like, all right, yep. That's enough. Okay. Time to go move on.[00:30:00]
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Yeah. So we talk a lot about like pacing and like not going through like the boom, bust cycle, if you can avoid it. And like spoon theory and like, which some people are familiar with. Some people are not familiar with, um, but you know, like being able to, like, every time you do something, take a break, like, you know, you're not going to go from not walking for six months to like doing a hike tomorrow.
That's probably not a great idea. So like how can you pace yourself and give your body the most rest and understanding that the same way that you need water and the same way that you need food and the same way that you need sleep, you need to rest between activities. And it's, a non negotiable need.
It's not you're being lazy. There's no such thing as lazy. So
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: yeah, that's something I talk about too. The nutrient metaphor. Um, it is just like sipping water throughout the day. I mean, you can drink a gallon of water in the morning, but I don't think that actually hydrates you throughout the whole day. If you don't take another sip and it's the same with sleep and rest.
Um, So sometimes I encourage even just 10 minute, like I rest breaks where we [00:31:00] put an eye mask on, or just close your eyes. I learned that through pregnancy or through feeding my baby when I was like, well, there's nothing I can do because I just have to put this bottle in their mouth. So I can't honestly, like moms will talk about like scrolling while they're feeding.
I can't even scroll on my phone. I don't know. Both my hands are occupied and all I can do is sit there. So I would close my eyes and I'm like, After a 10 minute eye break, it was like, wait, I'm this, like, really, I feel more energy. I feel. Like I was depleted 10 minutes ago and now like, I feel a little bit better.
And I think that was kind of the turning point for me around rest and how to, how 10 minute breaks can be so beneficial. Um, and important.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Yeah. And also like the idea of like resting where like you're doing nothing, not resting, where you're also like reading and listening to a podcast and doing all these things, like.
Actually not doing anything for 10 minutes. Like nothing at [00:32:00] all. Yeah.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: And, and also, so there's that piece, right. And then people will say like, I think actually, um, so I'm hearing people say, um, but I rest all the time, you know, I can't do anything. So I'm resting all the time and yeah. How often do you rest without a podcast or a book or TV on in the background?
And if you are in bed, if you can't walk, then. I get it. Like, I'm not trying to take anything away from you, um, by saying don't, like, if there's nothing else you can do, please like allow yourself to listen to those things. But can you give yourself 10 minutes where you're just with your own thoughts to kind of gain some clarity and gain some, some rest in that way?
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Yeah. And can you spend 10 minutes not thinking about all the things that you'd be doing while you're sitting there doing nothing for 10 minutes? Because. It's not really resting when we're thinking about all the things we should be doing. And shutting is part of our inner critics. So it all like leads back to, you [00:33:00] know, really dismantling these, these systems that tell us that we need to be doing all the time.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah, absolutely. This is a really wonderful conversation. Um, I mean, I think I've had this conversation before, but every time I have it, it just evolves and changes. And I guess like art, right. It just kind of. Well, melds into each other. Um, I'm loving this. What else is coming up for you around this?
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Um, I think like speaking of art, like sometimes, you know, especially with everything going on in the world right now, I find that a lot of clients are feeling hopeless or rage filled and they, which, I mean, Of course.
And they don't know where to put this. And, you know, and it applies to like chronically ill folks as well. Like there's always, like we said before, like rage to be felt there. Um, and I really encourage people not just to go build community and be in community, but to try to make something outside of session [00:34:00] around like all those feelings.
And like, you know, maybe you want to make something and give it to people. Maybe you want to make something and like make a hobby out of it. Or like, or maybe you want to make something and, um, sell it and donate the proceeds to whatever it is that you are, you know, concerned about, or that's like sitting with you.
And I've had so many clients be like, Oh, like I started doing like printmaking or crocheting or Photo work or whatever it is. And I'm selling it and donating the proceeds to XYZ community group. And, and that's really helped me, like, not just like I move my body. So I feel like the emotions running through me, but then I'm also like doing good at the same time.
And just like being able to use art to give yourself a voice and also make a difference if you are feeling hopeless. So,
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: yeah, I found that the pandemic actually really encouraged, um, that a lot, I think people were home for the first time for so many hours a day and realized like, there's nothing I can do.
And so there was no guilt around, well, not no guilt, but [00:35:00] like, I think a lot of people quickly realized like, wait, okay, like this is, this can be a normal thing. And recently that's been ramping back up at like, our lives have been ramping back up. Um, This year has been such a wild year. It's like, there's the election coming up.
There's, um, and I think we're just busier now than in the last three, four years, period. And people don't understand why it feels like they're swirling and crumbling. Even I get caught up in that. I'm like, why does it feel so like, like the world is on fire? I mean, the world is on fire. There's that. But I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that we're not resting like we were four years ago.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Yeah, like all of the collective trauma that is occurring around the world right now on top of the fact that a lot of people can't make ends meet because of inflation and the economy and whatever, that's a lot of stuff to hold on top of [00:36:00] your regular day to day. And then when you look at people with like multiple intersectional, intersectional identities, you look at chronically ill people, you look at moms, you look at people with trauma, like all of that is just so compounded.
Like, of course it feels this way. Of course it feels this way, but we're not alone in it. We're all sitting in it. I tell my clients all the time, like, we are rowing the boat. The boat may have holes in it, but we are all in this boat together. We're just getting through it.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah. And we're just playing like little whack a mole or like, Plugging holes with your fingers and like, okay, now it's your turn.
Okay. Now it's your turn. Now it's your turn.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: And I'm like really real with my client. I'm like, yes. All of these things. Absolutely. A hundred percent. It does feel that shitty and how can we find some support in that?
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah. And that's where the, again, getting it out on paper, getting it out creatively, or even if it's just in your [00:37:00] mind, you had kind of mentioned that earlier.
Like if you're inviting a client to do something artistically, Okay. It can be just visualizing whatever it is you're asking them to do. Or like, if they come up with, you ask them this thing that sparks their own thing, they do something different and they just think about it. My own therapist, she's probably getting so tired of me.
She's like, um, she's a dance and movement therapist. Well, actually I don't, she just uses a lot of dance and semantics and I never move in session with her. And she's just like moving across the whole room and she's like, it's okay. You can just watch. And I'm like, this is wonderful. Like, I very much enjoy just watching and imagining myself moving, but like getting up and doing the thing.
I still haven't quite figured it out. Maybe it's just a little bit of like PDA. Maybe it's a little bit of, I don't know. It could be that, but. And fear of my body, which I know, um, is like a lifelong process since I do live with [00:38:00] pain and, and, um, flare ups, but it's beautiful to have that permission, like, yeah, you can just watch, you don't have to do the thing.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Yeah, it's so funny that you say that because I see a somatic therapist who's probably equally as sick of me. And like, I don't do that equally either. And like, she'll be like, what do your feet feel like on the floor? And I'm like, feet! Like, I just feel so sick. But it's so funny because like, we're clinicians and we do all these things with people, but like, We're just like everybody else in session, y'all.
Like we are, we are no different than anybody else. We're just, yeah, like, that's why I just let people show up how they are because I, and I tell people all the time, I'm like, I'm not going to make as much eye contact with you and I'm going to fidget and I'm going to drink my drink and I'm going to show up in all these ways because I'm going to show up authentically because I want you to be able to show up authentically.
So like, I, you know, I, [00:39:00] Try to be as me as possible in session so that people can feel like they can be as much them as they are in session. So,
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: yeah, I think that's what, you know, as you were describing your experience, like the feet on the floor, that's what came to mind. Um, No matter what the modality is, even if it's CBT, okay.
Even if we're just trying to challenge thoughts, if you have a therapist, who's like, well, have you thought about it this way? And you're like, no, and fuck that way of thinking. And they're like, all right, cool. Then that's like, sometimes that's all we need is just that validation that it's okay to say no, which I think goes back to decolonizing.
It's okay to say no. And recognizing that there's real, there has been historically real danger in saying no, especially for marginalized identities. Um, so I just want to acknowledge that too. It's okay to, we want it, it's okay to say, no, we should be able to say no. And it doesn't always come without consequences.
So just be aware of that and also strengthen ourselves so that we can handle [00:40:00] or do the thing that needs to happen. Once. The consequence has been implemented.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Yeah, absolutely. I tell clients all the time, like, you're driving the bus, if there's anything, like, if I do something or offer you something, or, you know, like, we're, like, working on something, and you're like, I don't want to do that.
Like I, like I said before, like, my clients who don't want to do art, but they want to speak it out loud, or they want to explore it in a different way, or they just want to talk, that's fine. Like, you never have to worry about being like, I don't really want to do that. Okay. We're not going to do that then.
We'll do something else. You're not going to offend me. I didn't create half the stuff that I do with you. Like, and even if I did, like, it's, everything is just about what fits you the best and everybody's so different. Like, it's, you know, we're not mind readers, so we're going to have to suggest things and we'll learn as you Kind of Kate, like hone that in as we go.
So, and some days a somatic thing may feel good and some days it might not. And some days art might feel good and some days it might not. And like all of that's okay.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah. And not trying to make too much meaning of [00:41:00] that. It's just, it doesn't feel, it could be any meaning. It could be because your body's like low in vitamin D today.
I don't know. It could literally be that simple. Or it could be like, you had a. Traumatic flashback that really took a lot of resources out of you, maybe even sort of unconsciously, you know, it's a thing that happened at work. You had this like reminiscent experience of childhood, and then you really don't even think about it because you just go right back into work and that physically affects you so much.
And a lot of this work is bringing out some of that awareness slowly and titrated so that it's not overwhelming. But we do want to acknowledge these things, um, and know that we can't always make meaning. We can't always know exactly why we're feeling so fatigued or why we're feeling in so much pain today.
Like there's just so much we don't know about our bodies and how the mind and body is connected.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Yeah. And sometimes it's just because you don't want to and that's also okay. That's fine. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. [00:42:00] Autonomy and advocacy and breaking down systems and strengths and all of these things are definitely the pillars of what I feel like to be the most affirming type of care for chronically ill people and for a whole lot of other people too.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah. I'm a big fan of, um, bringing strengths in. Sometimes people are like, okay, cool. So my strength is kindness. And I'm like, yeah, your strength is kindness. Like, That means that when you are having a hard time, you actually have a stronger ability to one, be kind to yourself or to show up in this way. Um, it also means that when you have to assert yourself, it might be harder for you, but that's okay.
We can learn how to do that. So I love strengths.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: That's great. Well, you know, I feel like you inviting me onto this podcast has really helped me feel connected to community, like to have another spooning therapist, reach out and be like, hello from somewhere else in the ether. I was like, how cool. So [00:43:00]
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: I love when I'm actually just in Atlanta, but we did meet through like a national Facebook group and somehow are right here.
So I love that, but I'm glad. And I do have a community for, I can't remember if I told you, have an online community for therapists. Facebook. So I'm happy to have you there. Did you actually, you might've signed up already. Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to grow that at the moment, but also trying not to overload myself.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: I'm always like all these big idea. I've really come to like, okay, I have a journal of big ideas and I'm like, yeah. Okay. Like if I have energy one day, I'll get around to one of these things. Otherwise. It's just on the paper and that's fine.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Well, and this is a part of what I am trying to build because I think we all have that experience.
And so again, not doing it all alone. Um, I really want to grow this library of videos for clients that we're all building it together. It isn't this like, I have to create this 12 week program. I have to do this thing that's going to [00:44:00] like cure this client. And it's like, that's one, not even, not even the, the, but I think we can all get stuck in that.
How do I help? How do I fix? How do I do? And instead it's just, how do we just support each other? So, yeah,
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: I feel like reminding ourselves to like, go back to the basics of like, it's about holding space. It's not about us becoming the holders of all knowledge in the entire world ever. Like that's not the game we're playing.
We're just showing up and showing up the best we can.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah, knowing what role you play as a therapist and it's not God and it's not the universe. It's, it's just It's just, we're active listeners and we support you along your journey without judgment. And that's, it's a rare, it's a rare find, like to be able to move through the world without judgment.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: So, yeah. And really at the end of the day, it has nothing to do with modalities at all. Like some of us pick up these things and [00:45:00] they're so cool. Don't get me wrong. A lot of the things that we're doing. Absolutely. Very cool. Right? Like it's, we're learning all these things and all these skills and whatever, but at the end of the day, it's just about the relationship.
And we all know that, but I think sometimes it's Sometimes it's hard to keep that in the forefront because you get swept away with these like, Oh, well, I should be all the sheds. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The therapeutic relationship.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah. And, you know, I had a teacher in grad school who was like, um, I don't know how we got on this topic, but I remember her saying, That she just kind of realized, like, she always knew, of course, client centered, Rogerian, blah, blah, blah.
But like, she only just now, like, I don't know, like 10 years into her career realized like that, that is it. And that's so now that's all she focuses on. And I'm like, how did like, this is a little bit of judgment coming up. And I'm like, how, how did it take you that long? Although she was very type A. And I just realized like [00:46:00] that type a personality.
I mean, you just, you have to be perfect. You have to be productive. You have to do the thing right. There has to be like an end goal. Like just focusing on the relationship is like so lofty. Um, to someone who, and you know, it's interesting. I think I grew up feel always trying to be very type A, but I don't think that was ever really in me.
Like, I don't think I'm naturally a type A person. Cause every time I go into that. I crash and burn hard. So it's just
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: interesting. Yeah. Um, well the And type A has some consequences to it too, like with stress, you know, like, but, um, I think it is, I think, you know, the systems are really built to kind of like pit clinicians against each other and like, who has the most fancy trainings and the most certificates and the most whatever.
And like, you know, you can really get like lost in the sauce sometimes. And I think [00:47:00] having clinicians who are grounded in like the, populations you're working with or what you're passionate about or what and you're just like kind of like counselor friends to like ground you and remind you like not like you're solid like even if you did nothing else.
you're good. Like it's okay. It, cause it's really about how you're showing up and not really about what you're doing. Cause
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: yeah, exactly. Yes. That was part of why I allowed myself somatic experiencing is a three year program, but I've taken a year off between each year. And that was really hard. That first time I did that, like, it just felt like I was quitting or I was like, I'm never going to get this now.
I'm like, I don't, I don't care. Like I've learned really great skills in each year. Um, and I will probably do year three next year, but I need that time, which is a set that's actually like a hallmark of SE work is giving time going slowly. So it's kind of an honor to that too. I think.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Oh, cool. And you're modeling, listening to your [00:48:00] body.
So your clients can do that too. Exactly. Yeah.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Do you ever feel like sometimes we're asking them, like, I, I feel like sometimes I'm asking my clients to go too slow or cause I get a lot of pushback, but I just can't want, now that I know what I know, I just can't go back.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: I don't know that I have that issue.
I think, I think, uh, Because of like my neurodiverse profile, I think like, I don't, I can't spend too long on things. Like I, I literally cannot, like, I just can't do it. I mean, I can circle back as many times as you need, but there's something in that drives me to just keep going. I don't know. So like, I think, I
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: know, I think I'm with you.
I think I'm with you there. Like I, uh, I should clarify because I have clients who come in who Only know somatic work as either of these like extreme kind of body movements or like, like trauma release exercises that they saw on Tik TOK or it's, um, I don't know how to sit. I can't, don't ask me to like be in this moment for [00:49:00] like 10 minutes.
And I'm like, I'm not, cause I can't, we're not, we're not doing that. Um, so I do move kind of fast, but then I always keep coming back to the same thing. Yeah.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I relate to that a lot. Um, and like, you know, speaking of social media, like a thought that comes to my mind is like, So I really encourage, I know like a lot of people have a lot of big feelings about this, but I really encourage people to bring, bring whatever you saw on TikTok, bring it into session.
Let me know. What is it? Like, do you feel like you have this chronic condition because it, it relates to all these symptoms? Okay. Let's explore that. Let's look up the specialist that can rule it out for you. If that's what you're concerned about. Do you feel like you're neurodiverse? Okay. Let's take some screeners.
Like, let's see what, like, if that's the case, like, I don't think that there's any harm in exploring. Things that people are feeling connected to because if it's drawing you in and it is more than likely relevant for some reason and we can explore that together. So I'm like, bring me your TikTok videos, bring me your whatever.
Like, [00:50:00] let's, let's look at that together. People will be like, I saw this thing on tick tock. It's okay. Like you don't have to, it's okay.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: No, I'm glad you said that and kind of called me out slash in there a little bit because, um, I, I'm like that with diagnoses, like, yes, tell me all about it.
What resonated with you for some reason, these trauma release exercises. So I, I have to look at this for myself, but they really trigger me. I'm just like, I don't know. I just see these like short clips of like, um, moving your body in dramatic ways as a way to like, get rid of the feeling. That's what it is.
I think when I'm hearing into, and I'm very big on like acceptance and not avoiding and working through and, but you have just invited me to. Even bring that invitation back to my clients. Okay. But what, like, what does resonate with you about this traumatic, this TRE, uh, this traumatic release exercise? Um, and then, yeah, some psycho ed around, around what that actually looks like in session and titrating.
[00:51:00] But sometimes too, we do want to just shake and get it out. And I'm okay with that. I just think, I just think that a lot of times the narrative I hear with it coming in session is like, this is going to help me get rid of this feeling. And it's like, it's not, it's, that's not how this works. And I'm sorry that like these coaches, these somatic coaches online are making you feel that way.
Um, but yes, the invitation is open to bring it into session. Let's process it together. Yeah.
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Like let's explore, let's process, let's be curious. Like, and you know, like, and with that, you could be like. You know, we're not, we're never going to get rid of feelings, but we can move through them in a way. And if you're looking to move through feeling, okay, like let's explore what might feel good for you or, you know, based on what you're bringing in.
But yeah, I just think it's funny because clients, I think clients have picked up on the fact that there's a taboo around social media in the clinician circles, because the way that a lot of people approach it is like, they're so nervous to like, just say that they saw something. But honestly, y'all, I will say, [00:52:00] like, if it wasn't for looking up, like, peer reviewed research articles on certain things or consulting social media or whatever, like, I don't know that my spouse would be around because we had to do some serious, like, self informing to get to advocate, right?
So like, you know, people mock it all they want to mock it, but at the same time, we are living in an age of information. And if you're being called to something or you're connected to something like sometimes women or people of some female birth, like looking up stuff is the only way they have to get the medical care they need.
So like, I'm very, just all about like, Bring me what you got and we'll explore it together. Like it's whatever it is. It doesn't matter.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you there. And it was helpful to hear you remind me of that. Um, awesome. Is there anything else you want to leave people with today?
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: Um, I don't think so.
Um, I'm thankful for, to be able to talk to you and form this relationship, but I look forward to working with you more too. [00:53:00] Um, and you know, I do have some groups. So like we talked about before, like if anybody's interested, um, I guess I could share that information with you and, um,
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: yeah, I'll put it in the show notes.
And
Rowan Crawfish APC, ATR-P: do you have social, like, uh, public social medias or no. No, not for like this kind of thing. Um, but if you're interested in like my counseling practice stuff, um, my practices website is live well, Sav. So it's like live well. And then SAV like for Savannah. Um, and all of my groups are on there and my individuals on there.
And then Um, our practice serves Savannah and all of Georgia remotely. So, and you have an Etsy shop. I do have an Etsy shop. Okay. So I crochet stuff. I do. Um, I have a small business and that is the counseling zebra on social media. Um, I originally started crocheting as a way to pay off medical debt cause we're drowning in it.
We still are. Um, but now it's just become more of like a passion project where I'm like, well, that'll get paid as it gets paid off, but I'm just really enjoying the [00:54:00] process. Um, so I make like. Cute little things like the zebra back here, uh, had to make an EDS mascot. Obviously his name is Rice Krispie because his joints snap, crackle and pop.
Um, I make like weighted items. I make, um, cane covers, like crochet cane covers. I'm about to make a series of like wheelchair crochet decor thingies. Um, And like wheelchair bags. I want to make like a whole disability series of stuff. Um, and then I just make weird stuff that catches my eye. Like I made like, um, some like booby plant hangers.
Cause I do a lot of like queer markets and that, you know, so it's just whatever.
Destiny Winters LPC CRC: That's amazing. I am so impressed. I love that. Um, yeah. If you ever want to come back on and just talk about your, your art, I would love to have you. Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. That's amazing, Lauren. Thank you so much.
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Destiny Davis, LPC CRC, is solely responsible for the content of this document. The views expressed herein may or may not necessarily reflect the opinions of Amanda Whitehouse, PhD.