Understanding Attachment Styles and Chronic Illness: Insights from Miranda Campbell LCSW
I recently interviewed Miranda Campbell, LCSW on The Chronic Illness Therapists Podcast. Miranda, co-author of The Attachment Style Makeover, shared invaluable insights on healing attachment wounds and building healthier relationships with others as well as with ourselves and our health challenges.
Attachment Styles Aren't Fixed
One of the most hopeful messages from Miranda is that attachment styles aren't set in stone. There's such a thing as "earned secure attachment,” which means that we can shift from insecure patterns toward more secure ones through intentional work and practice.
“Our attachment styles are not set in stone and there's things that we can do to kind of shift to more secure patterns, at least more secure patterns more often," Campbell explains.
How Attachment Styles Affect Chronic Illness Management
Different attachment styles profoundly influence how we experience and manage chronic illness:
Anxious Attachment: People with anxious attachment may struggle to ask for help without feeling guilty or like a burden. Miranda, who experiences migraines herself, admits: "I [often] feel like it needs to be debilitating before I ask for help."
Avoidant Attachment: Those with avoidant tendencies may isolate themselves and resist seeking needed support in an effort to maintain autonomy and independence.
Disorganized Attachment: This style creates an unpredictable push-pull dynamic - desperately wanting help at times while rejecting it at others, which can confuse caregivers.
Destiny offers a simple yet important framework for understanding attachment styles:
Anxious attachment means moving toward conflict, while avoidant attachment means moving away from it.
This movement metaphor perfectly captures how these patterns play out in relationships. The anxiously attached person leans in during times of stress - seeking reassurance and connection, sometimes with intensity that can feel overwhelming to others. They might ask multiple questions, seek excessive reassurance, or even create conflict as a way to engage.
The avoidantly attached person does the opposite - retreating into themselves, creating emotional or physical distance, and focusing on self-sufficiency when relationship tensions arise.
The disorganized attached person oscillates between the two in a pattern that often feels predictable to them, but unpredictable to the people around them. This can make it really hard to explain and to understand, and this unpredictability can strain relationships and medical care, as providers and loved ones struggle to establish consistent support patterns that work.
With chronic illness, these patterns become even more pronounced: the anxious person might frantically seek medical answers and support, while the avoidant might minimize symptoms or delay care even when care is very needed.
The Caregiver's Attachment Style Matters Too
Miranda addresses how a caregiver's attachment style affects the support they provide:
Anxiously attached caregivers may feel threatened when not appreciated enough
Avoidant caregivers might struggle to express their own needs
Disorganized caregivers might oscillate between being overly present and burning out
Recognizing a caregiver's attachment style isn't about assigning blame or inducing shame - it's about understanding the complex dance between two people navigating chronic illness together. These patterns developed for valid reasons, often as a way to protect themselves in the early years of their lives.
When caregivers and those with chronic illness can compassionately identify how their attachment styles interact, they gain valuable insight into recurring conflicts and misunderstandings.
For example:
how an anxiously attached caregiver might overwhelm an avoidantly attached patient
how an avoidantly attached caregiver might trigger abandonment fears in an anxiously attached patient
how an anxiously attached patient might need more emotional support
how a disorganized attached person might need consistent routines and clear boundaries to feel safe, along with patience and understanding during their push-pull cycles.
Many of us have immense shame surrounding our needs, which means that you might feel negatively even now as you read these words. I encourage you to try to go back through this article and read these words as objective and without judgment towards yourself or others.
This is arguably the most important part of this work.
This awareness creates a pathway to more intentional interactions, where both parties can recognize their patterns in real-time and make conscious choices toward secure relating, even when their instincts pull them elsewhere. The chronic illness itself becomes less of a battleground and more of a shared challenge that can actually strengthen connection when approached with this understanding.
Moving Toward Secure Attachment
Securely attached caregivers bring valuable balance to the caregiving relationship. They can set healthy boundaries while remaining emotionally available, communicate needs clearly without guilt or defensiveness, and maintain their own wellbeing without feeling selfish. Their consistency creates a foundation of trust for the person with chronic illness, allowing both parties to navigate health challenges with greater resilience.
This secure foundation helps the relationship withstand the unpredictable nature of chronic illness, as securely attached caregivers can adapt to changing needs without taking setbacks personally or becoming overwhelmed by them.
Miranda offers practical advice for building more secure attachment patterns:
Get curious about acting secure even when you don't feel secure: "Even if I don't feel secure, I still may feel anxious... However, I can choose to act secure."
Be proactive: Ask for help before reaching a crisis point. "I can choose to act secure by asking proactively."
Run mini-experiments: Practice new behaviors with the safest people first to "stack the deck" for success.
Grieve what wasn't: Accept that some relationships may never look like a "Hallmark movie" and forge new paths based on everyone's capabilities.
Adjust expectations: "Closeness may not be wearing the same pajamas... Closeness may be distant, or small doses, or speaking about surface level topics."
Cultural Context Matters
Miranda emphasizes how cultural and generational context shapes attachment:
“For many of us in a BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, & People of Color) community, our parents and their parents may not have had the privilege of really tending to their own emotional needs. They were burdened with survival."
She explains how our current generation has more opportunity to address emotional needs and heal generational trauma, even though this work comes with its own challenges. This perspective acknowledges the significant impact of historical and societal factors on attachment patterns across generations.
For communities that have faced systemic oppression, economic hardship, or displacement, survival often took precedence over emotional processing or relationship-building.
Parents and grandparents may have developed attachment styles focused on protection and resilience rather than emotional vulnerability.
When addressing attachment wounds in these contexts, Miranda suggests we must honor these survival mechanisms while recognizing the opportunity we now have to evolve beyond them.
This intergenerational lens helps us understand attachment patterns with greater compassion, seeing them not just as individual psychological traits but as adaptations shaped by collective experiences across time, culture, and community.
The Power of Communication
Communication is essential for both people with chronic illness and their caregivers. Understanding each other's attachment styles can help create supportive dynamics that work for everyone.
Miranda suggests tailoring support to attachment needs, such as giving space to those who value independence, creating consistent routines for those with disorganized attachment, and providing reassurance for anxiously attached people.
These insights remind us that while chronic illness presents unique challenges, understanding our attachment patterns can help us navigate these challenges with more compassion for ourselves and for others. The journey toward secure attachment isn't about perfection but it’s definitely about consistently taking small steps that gradually reshape our relationships with ourselves, our bodies, and those who care for us.
As Miranda Campbell, LCSW reminds us, we can choose to "act secure" even when we don't feel secure, gradually building new neural pathways that make security our default setting. In doing so, chronic illness becomes not just a challenge to overcome but an opportunity to deepen our understanding of ourselves and cultivate more authentic connections with those around us.
The path may not be linear, and there will be setbacks along the way, but with awareness, intention, and compassion, we can transform our attachment wounds into sources of wisdom and strength.
Connect with Miranda: Book / Website for therapy clients / Website for services for other therapists / Instagram
Want to listen to the podcast interview? Click here for Episode 82: Understanding Attachment Styles and Chronic Illness w/ Miranda Campbell LCSW
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Episode transcribed with AI and will contain errors that are not representative of the actual word or meaning of the sentence.
Miranda Campbell LCSW
Destiny Davis LPC CRC (2): [00:00:00] Thank you to everyone who
came on Saturday to the Reclaiming Intimacy Workshop. Kamilah Jones
is a sex therapist here in Atlanta, and she did such a good job at
breaking down, basically, the fundamentals of what it takes to feel
intimate and connected and warm and loved and turned on, um, with
your partner despite having chronic pain and illness.
Because there's a lot that goes into physical touch and living with a body
in pain. So if you want the replay to that, check the link in the show
notes. And of course, if you are in my membership, which is 17 a month,
you get all access to all recordings for free, um, as a part of your
monthly membership.
And now here's my interview with Miranda Campbell about attachment
styles and chronic pain and illness.
The Chronic Illness Therapist podcast is meant to be a place where
people with chronic illnesses can come to feel heard, seen, and safe.
While listening to mental health therapists and other medical
professionals talk about the realities of treating difficult conditions, this
might be a new [00:01:00] concept for you, one in which you never have
to worry about someone inferring that it's all in your head.
We dive deep into the human side of treating complex medical
conditions and help you find professionals that leave you feeling hopeful
for the future. I hope you love what you learned here, and please
consider leaving a review or sharing this podcast with someone you
love. This podcast is meant for educational purposes only for specific
questions related to your unique circumstances.
Please contact a licensed medical professional in your state of
residence.
Miranda Campbell is a licensed clinical social worker and attachment
trauma therapist with over a decade of experience in helping individuals
heal from relational trauma and foster secure, healthy relationships. She
combines attachment based therapy with innovative techniques like
brain spotting to guide [00:02:00] clients in understanding and
transforming their attachment styles. With a compassionate, trauma
sensitive approach, Miranda supports clients navigating complex
relationship challenges, attachment wounds, and emotional regulation,
empowering them to build meaningful connections and achieve
emotional resilience.
As an experienced therapist, she has successfully developed tools,
including the Attachment Style Audit, widely used by individuals seeking
deeper self awareness and relationships. Her recent book, The
Attachment Style Makeover, has also Garner detention for its practical,
relatable approach to understanding attachment styles.
I personally have read Miranda's book, and I think that if you are looking
for something that is easy to understand and really insightful, that will
give you a deeper look into how and why people act the way they act,
and then what to do about that from a place of growth and
understanding and relational health.
Her book is one that you wanna get for sure. [00:03:00]
Tell me a little bit about, your book, the Attachment Makeover.
So what, tell me about the name, the title, what drove you to that title,
um, and, and how that encompasses what you talk about in the book.
Miranda Campbell LCSW: Yeah, um, I think it's really important to just
recognize that attachment styles aren't fixed. They aren't set in stone.
There's such thing as we call, earned secure attachment.
And, um, you know, I think Makeover explains that in a way. And then I
also co authored it with my therapist bestie, Jessica Harris, who is a
phenomenal therapist. She's all about attachment, relationships, um,
especially that relationship you have with yourself, your body, your Your
relationship with food, and she's also a professional makeup artist.
So it just, it just seemed like, it just seems like aligned with, with us and
our, our brands and stuff.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: That's awesome. I didn't know that about
[00:04:00] her. Um, that's really cool. Yeah. Um, Yeah, okay, so let's talk
about that concept because a lot of people listening to this podcast You
know struggling with chronic illness and sometimes the chronic illness
has been there their whole life And it's like as they get their diagnosis
that it's an adult.
Sometimes it's like yeah I kind of knew this was always here, but I'm just
now getting this diagnosis or sometimes, you know, they get sick
overnight either way, there is a bit of a identity shift that starts to happen
and The way that I usually talk about attachment with clients is like, it
usually has to do a lot with fear and how you were scared as a child.
Um, you know, when you were scared as a child, however, your
caregivers responded to you is often kind of how you then respond to
your chronic illness. Um, and then the way that your attachment style is
kind of plays into how you react as well. So curious thoughts on that.
And then also when we're talking about this makeover piece, like
[00:05:00] Yeah, we can kind of go into what it's like to maybe start
relating securely and and things like that.
Miranda Campbell LCSW: Yeah. I guess I see it twofold and I'm sure
you can relate like on topics that you are really like passionate about like
your mind goes 50 million directions all at once like I can answer this
way This is also true, you know, but I'll try to try to narrow it down to you
but what comes up for me and hearing you say that I think about The
fact that like, yes, I said that our attachment styles are not set in stone
and like there's things that we can do to kind of shift to more secure
patterns, at least more secure patterns more often, especially.
Um, and then there's also like space to just accepting like I'm anxiously
or avoidantly or, you know, a combination of the two. I'm attached this
way, thus I need to see this from the people I'm around or this in my
relationships. How do I seek? this thing out. [00:06:00] So for instance, if
I'm anxiously attached and I had a chronic illness, I personally have
migraines.
So when I have migraines, am I able to ask for help without feeling
guilty, without feeling like I'm a burden? And if that's a pain point for me,
then I might need to set it up with like my support, my caregiver, my
partner, um, where we just have ways of communicating that don't
Activate that. For instance, this is telling myself, but I am working on this.
Sometimes it's hard. Like, I feel like I need to be like about, I don't know,
I just feel like it needs to be debilitating before I ask for help. Right? Or I
feel like I don't know, like I have to earn it or I have to like
overcompensate, give back tenfold, you know, um, and that may result
in me asking at the last minute.
But what that has done is set me up to be, [00:07:00] I don't know, set
up this dynamic where It puts my partner or my supports in kind of like
panic mode where they have to like maybe logistically figure out, Oh, let
me change this meeting at work and do it up. But if I read that logistical
part as like hesitation or as, Oh, I'm being too much, I'm asking for too
much or I'm causing them too much trouble.
Like I'm reinforcing those attachment wounds. And so to shift to a more
secure pattern in this dynamic, then I must act differently. Even if I don't
feel secure, I still may feel anxious. I still may feel guilty. I still may have
like this disproportionate worry about being a burden. However, I can
choose to Act secure by asking proactively like, Hey, I'm probably I'm
feeling a migraine coming on.
I'll probably need help a little bit later. If you could leave work early.
Great. You know, then they have more ample time room to make
adjustments. And then I [00:08:00] don't have that experience reinforcing
those old attachment wounds. Like it's just a game changer.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, full disclosure. I run very much the
same way.
And so I'm curious for you if you've also I know for me, it's been like, as I
kind of learned all of this and I'm learning over and over and over again,
how to kind of reach out for help, ask for help way before the thing I
need, um, It felt like, you know, it often feels like you're just, I'm like
stumbling over how to ask, what's the right way to ask?
Like, it feels so hard to figure out. I'm curious if you also experienced
that in your journey.
Miranda Campbell LCSW: I mean, yes and no. I think, I think it comes
in seasons. I think it, it could be something where I feel like, okay, I got a
handle on this. I've been having migraines since I've been eight. So like,
there's an element of this where I'm just used to needing [00:09:00] to
ask for help and to rely on people and just knowing like, Hey, if this gets
any worse, I'm going to be useless to everybody involved.
I think it adds an extra element that now we have kids. So it's not like I
can just. lay down indefinitely until I felt better. I have little ones
depending on me. So there's an element of like, oh, you have to push
through. But then, oh no, this is getting bad. Um, I think it's seasons
where maybe let's say, for instance, I have this book release, right?
And so things are already really busy. Perhaps my partner is already
dealing with more than his fair share of tantrums and has to take the L
and just like writing solo with the kids because I need to get this finished
or I have deadlines to meet. And then if a migraine hits, then I feel
doubly bad. So I think it's more like situational now where I have.
Um, I'm, I'm usually comfortable if all [00:10:00] things are well, but when
things are a little bit more intense or things are a little less predictable or
we're off our rhythm and then I need help, then it, I'm, I might be more
inclined to, excuse me, revert back to my anxious patterns.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah. I think that was, yeah, I think we said it
in two different ways, but it's like there are going to be certain situations
in life where like you kind of find yourself maybe Reverting back, which
to me feels like stumbling, but it can feel different to everyone.
I also feel like having kids really like upped that, like, okay, you really
have to ask differently. You really have to be proactive here, um,
because like multiple people are relying on you. Right, right, right,
Miranda Campbell LCSW: right.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah. Um, so, yeah, and I always, you can
correct, maybe you have a better way of explaining this, correct me if I'm
wrong, but I always, when I'm talking about anxious, um, attachment
styles with clients, I like to explain it as anxious means [00:11:00] we
kind of move toward, and avoidant means we move away from conflict,
that's just like my Watered down a simplified way of making it easy.
Do you have a different way that you kind of simplify it and make it just
like quickly digestible so people really can get away from like, wait, I'm
anxiously attached. It means I have anxiety and it's this big disorder.
And, you know, how do you kind of explain that? So it's more just a easy
to understand and digest.
Miranda Campbell LCSW: Yeah, I really like yours. I may borrow it. Let
me actually steal it. Um, I think I narrow it down to what we fear. So, you
know, an avoidant person, um, may fear the closeness. They may not
feel very safe. Like maybe times when they attempted to be avoidant, I
mean, I'm sorry, attempted to connect, it may have blown up in their
face.
That's, that's not their safe. place, right? Or for an anxiously attached
person, they may, um, fear [00:12:00] that disconnection. They may fear
they may be conditioned to fear, um, a separation because it may result
in abandonment. And so for a disorganized attached person, this kind of
blends of both. They may, at times, fear closeness, even though they
desperately want it.
So it like kind of just looks like this push pull dynamic, where it's a little
bit less predictable about what you're going to get. So kind of sum it up
in that way about what they fear.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: I love that. Yeah. Um, do you talk in the book
about that and kind of ways to start to navigate that?
Miranda Campbell LCSW: Definitely. Um, the book takes you through
the process of really getting to know your attachment style.
So while it's really important to recognize what attachment style you
have, I really try to make it more accessible by just saying like, look, if, if
you could at least have an entry point of knowing. [00:13:00] what your
traits are, what your behaviors are. Don't obsess about really like putting
yourself cleanly into this box.
Leave that to those who you're working with. Um, just so like, I just
would hate for someone to get so stuck that they never moved towards
the shifts that they need to make. And so like, I, I think Making it even
the most simple is is recognizing whether you're secure or insecure,
right? Or recognizing that, like, you may not again fit cleanly in that box.
Do you tend to be more secure than not? Or do you tend to be more
insecure than not? And really understanding, like what your fears are.
We also kind of, like, depict just ways, um, relatable ways we use media,
like movies and books on, like how You can kind of pick up, um, on
others, um, attachment ones or, or attachment patterns.
Sometimes it's a lot, it [00:14:00] feels a lot more safe to think about it in
somebody else before we, you know, think internally. And there's so
many like subtle signs that we see in media, moderate signs, severe
signs. But, um, I think my most favorite chapter is grieving. The past or
the relationships that we wish we would have had or could have had in
our childhood.
Um, but from there, of course, we walk you through practical strategies
to start shifting and chipping away at those patterns.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, that's, can you say more about the
grief topic around, yeah, what this,
Miranda Campbell LCSW: yeah. In working with, um, the clients that I
see, like, we often get stuck on the past on like, well, my parent didn't do
this or they did that.
And it really impacted me and I can't talk to them about it. Um, they
become defensive or, you know, it's hard to what I really think it boils
down to. It's hard for us as [00:15:00] humans to, take ownership and
accountability for the things that we may have dropped the ball on when
we had reasonable reasons or explanations on why that happened.
But I think, you know, healing comes from all parties recognizing that
there's space for both. I understand that you did your absolute best. I
may have done. Probably the same, maybe worse than you in that
situation. However, it's still impacted me in this way. And just being able
to hold space for that.
Holding space for, like, both, like, there's a reason why our parents
couldn't deliver what we really needed, while also, like, recognizing and
acknowledging how it impacted us.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah. You know, in undergrad I had this
professor, and she was like, it was a psychology professor, and,
[00:16:00] and, you know, we're just young baby undergrad students.
Like, we're not even anywhere near, like, grad school yet, nothing. And
she was, she was like, you know, the problem with, the problem with y'all
is that y'all had too high of expectations of your parents. We were like,
what? Like, all of our trauma is because of our parents. Don't talk that,
like, don't. Don't, uh, just diminish us.
And it's funny because as a not funny, I mean, it's funny because I've
done a lot of work around it, but it was not funny at the time. But it's like,
yeah, okay, my parents did, like, they, they, there were things that
caused me heartache and trauma and never should have happened.
And I can, as a fully functioning adult who's done a ton of work around
this, really understand that, like, they, they both did the best they could.
There was, there was literally nothing they could have done differently,
given the circumstances that they were in. Um, not everyone can say
that. I have, like, I've definitely worked with people who are like, No, my
parents had this, this, and [00:17:00] that, like, available to them, and
they really chose not to. So I think that that's also accurate and true, but
I think for a lot of us, again, like, if you just look at their level of
education, or their level of emotional intelligence, or their level of
support, or their level of finances, or their level of, like, family trauma,
like, there's so many different things that impact that, and, um, A lot of
our parents really just did the best that they could, and it doesn't mean
you, you shouldn't be able to hurt around that, it just means like, when
you're pointing the finger and saying like, it is your fault that I'm hurting,
yes, and hurt happens in this world, and now we have to figure out how
we're gonna move through it, in a way that's good for us, again, not, not
to, yeah, not to override like, responsibility or anything like that,
Miranda Campbell LCSW: Yeah, absolutely.
One of the things that was really important to us is to acknowledge that
and how that looks in a cultural lens. And so for many of us in [00:18:00]
like a BIPOC community, Um, our parents and their parents may not
have had the privilege of really tending to their own emotional needs.
They were burdened with surviving survival.
And so I feel like I think I said this to a client yesterday. Um, I feel like
this generation, um, perhaps I'm an older, older millennial. So from
millennials moving forward and maybe some of The older, what is it?
Gen Y, Gen X, older than us. Yeah. So I feel like this, we're like the first
generation to kind of have the luxury, not all of us, but you know, more of
us are being able to have the luxury to tend to the emotional needs, um,
of ourselves and starting to repair some of the [00:19:00] generational
trauma and wounds that we've experienced.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah. As you're saying that, I'm thinking my
brain is kind of going to, okay, having the option now to work on, work
through emotions, like, um, but meanwhile experiencing that
intergenerational trauma, which leads to an insecurity, um, so we get to,
now we get to engage in this work, um, And then how, yeah, I am
struggling with the question, like, I'm curious how, because the way that I
always frame things around healing and like learning is, is kind of like I
said at the beginning, like, for me, there's a lot of stumbling involved in,
in learning a lot of things.
And, and to me, that's just become a part of the process. It doesn't feel
like failure anymore. It's like now when I'm stumbling, I'm like, Oh, I'm
almost there. Cause like, I can feel that that's. How that works. And so
I'm just kind of thinking about, okay, the generation before you still
massive, massive trauma.[00:20:00]
This is the first generation now that's finally able to start to kind of do
some of that healing work. So I'm just wondering what that process feels
like to you. Um, And how you see that, process helping you get to
secure relating. Think timeline, struggles of doing it, like obstacles to
doing it. Yeah, all of that.
Miranda Campbell LCSW: Yeah, I think the biggest obstacle, like I said,
like is in chapter three of grieving the attachment. Um, wounds or the
trauma or the things that like we would have should have could have
experienced. Um, I think that's a huge foundation in it. I think the biggest
hurdle is that, that many of us face is that we might not get an apology.
We might need to break up with this idea of what we could have, should
have had. We might need to break up with the idea [00:21:00] that that
thing could be developed, that that, um, I might need to agree with the
fact that my relationship might not ever look like a Hallmark movie. Or
what my partner's relationships look like, or my friends, right?
However, it doesn't mean that I can't still have something. It just may
look different. Closeness may not be wearing the same pajamas, you
know, and taking family photos. Closeness may be distant, or small
doses, or speaking about surface level topics. And that's okay in learning
to forge a new path with what everyone's capabilities and capacity holds.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: And that I think was what my brain was trying
to connect to secure relating because a secure [00:22:00] relating within
yourself means that you can have different expect, you can change your
expectations of somebody and how you want them to respond to you
without it feeling like you're the problem, you are broken, you're not
worthy.
I think that especially for like anxiously attached, maybe for both, but
yeah, when you don't have the relationships you want, it often feels like
it's because you're not good enough. And so I'm hearing like within the
grieving process and the acceptance process and the secure learning to
be more secure in how you relate, you know, and can feel that you are
worthy and you are good enough, even if the relationship that you want
can't happen.
Miranda Campbell LCSW: Yeah. And the cool thing about it is that like
when you're actually doing the work and you're acknowledging the
needs that weren't met in the needs that you currently have, that gives
you like a guy that gives you insight into like how you need to begin
showing up for [00:23:00] yourself and how you need to begin asking for
your needs from others.
It's just recognizing that in the past, you may have asked for those needs
to be met, right? But perhaps in very insecure ways. And so, um, I kind
of liken transition from insecure to secure patterns to just a series of mini
experiments. If I can identify what I need and seek those out from people
that have felt historically safe in my life.
You know, making sure, I'm going to stack the deck. I'm going to start
practicing these new behaviors with people that are least likely to cause
her in pain. Right? And the more I get some wins under my belt, I'm able
to rewire my expectations because those of us who have faced trauma
and difficulties, we start to expect that.
You're like, Oh, I'm not even going to ask because I [00:24:00] expect
them to act on this way. Um, but we start to rewire that. Um, and then it's
also important to recognize like who is safe just because maybe a sibling
thinks, Oh, this aunt or this uncle or this parent, they are my safe space.
That doesn't mean that you have to identify them as safe, you know, for
yourself.
I think that was a lot.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: No, no, it's perfect. Yeah, that was perfect.
Um, Yeah, I think that that's a little bit of what we were talking about
earlier, too, of, you know, we don't ask, we don't ask, and then, like,
we're at level 10, I, to me, I think that that's because we have had years
of experience of learning that our first request doesn't get us anywhere.
So we just shut down, and then, then you get to a point where you just
have no choice because things are really bad, and you have to ask, and
usually it comes up as you blowing up, or you, like, doing it in a really
insecure way. Mhm.
Miranda Campbell LCSW: Yeah. And when we do it in an insecure
way, it usually [00:25:00] reinforces, like it brings on the thing that we
fear the most.
And so, like, if I'm anxiously attached and I'm scared of abandonment,
then I might ask for my needs by criticizing my partner. It's like, Hey, like,
you never do this for me. Why not? And like, do you really love me? And
that's kind of off putting. Instead, let's invite like, Hey, I really like doing
this. I made plans for us to do it tomorrow.
You know, like it just will definitely impact the outcomes a lot of times
and then reshape like our expectations. But like, don't, don't get it wrong.
Like secure people experience the same things that insecure people,
they're subject to experience it, right? It's just they don't perceive it as
threatening as much.
They don't, they don't see conflict as like, Oh my goodness, the
relationship is doomed. It's going to fail. It's just like, Oh, we had a rough
patch. We'll both sleep on it and talk about it tomorrow. [00:26:00]
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah. And it does. Yeah. It doesn't feel
threatening, which if you're listening to this and you're anxiously
attached, you're like, I don't even know what that, what do you mean?
It doesn't feel
Miranda Campbell LCSW: threatening. You better
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: wake up.
Miranda Campbell LCSW: We got to talk about this now or we're never
going to make it. Yeah,
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: yeah, exactly. If this, you know, you're going
to leave me tomorrow. We can't get this right now. Yeah. It's yeah. That
is one of the hardest lessons too, is just learning that like time and space
can actually be, and usually is good and healing and safe, but it's, you
know, when you were a kid, if time and space meant, you know, dad
was going to come home, yelling and screaming, you know, when he got
home from work, then time and space, It means there's something really
bad coming in a few hours or a few days.
We don't know what or when so yeah, the trauma piece of this is really
trauma. I, you know, trauma doesn't cause your attachment style, but it
impacts like the way it impacts you and [00:27:00] is, um, uh, It can
impact you differently depending on your attachment style. And I think
that's why one person in the family might find dad really safe and the
other person might find dad really dangerous.
Miranda Campbell LCSW: I don't know. I think trauma does impact our
attachment style.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: I think it impacts it, but it doesn't create it from
birth. Like, I think that we're born a certain Like, I think we're I do. I think
we're born with an inherent kind of way. And then, cause, I don't know
about your kids, but my kids are like I mean, it feels like I can already tell
kind of what their styles are, but then their experiences will impact how
secure or insecure or how avoidant or anxious, you know, I think that the
epigenetic kind of like, kind of more in a certain way.
And then your experiences really add additional impact. That's how I see
it. But please. Yeah.
Miranda Campbell LCSW: Like, no, that's definitely food for thought. I
mean, I'm pretty sure we'd be splitting hairs and at the [00:28:00] end of
it come to like, Oh yeah, I totally agree with that. Um, but yeah, that's
definitely, um, something to mull over.
I guess like what I'm hearing is that like, like your children or children in
general are born with a predisposition to attach a certain way or another
is what you're saying.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: That's how I, yeah, that's how I feel, um, and
then you could, yeah, we could definitely split hairs and some people
would say, well, it's, you know, their experience in the womb and then,
but I don't know.
I don't, I don't care what the, what the, I mean, can we even prove that?
Miranda Campbell LCSW: Like, I don't know. And am I, I'm not like a
huge researcher, so I'm not going to. Yeah, no, I mean, not to that
extent, you know, I'm not yeah. Um,
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: yeah, yeah, yeah, I think, and you know,
watching to like, I know, like, different people, um, That I know in my life
who have like multiple siblings and all have different relationships with
their parents and I, I also do a lot of like, I also conceptualize a lot of
things through the [00:29:00] Enneagram, not just attachment, but like,
oh yeah, that affected you this way because your Enneagram number is
this.
It's not really about it being like an exact science or like some fatalistic
thinking. It's more of just a way for me to like theoretically conceptualize
things. Um. And yeah, if you're, you know, for example, if you're
avoidantly attached from birth, like you kind of just have a, maybe, you
know, secure but a more avoidant style.
When dad comes home and like doesn't really say much and he goes
straight to the kitchen and starts Whatever. And he doesn't really
acknowledge you. You, like, feel nothing about that. It's like, yeah, okay,
cool. Dad's home. He went to the kitchen. Whereas if you're super
anxiously attached, it's like, Dad didn't say hi to me, and he doesn't love
me, and he doesn't And so that's kind of how I see that, where it's like,
two people might not feel the same trauma because they just didn't
experience Dad's actions the same way.
Miranda Campbell LCSW: Yeah, no, I totally get what you're saying. I
guess. I [00:30:00] just think that there's still like a, an organ, I mean an
origin, an origin, an origin from that. And it really could be like a benign,
like my dad had to work and like super unavoidable, but how that person
interpreted that, um, based on previous conditioning.
Yeah. Yeah. The links have totally different parents, unless they're twins.
Like I feel like the parent I was to my daughter, who's now seven to my
son is now three, like. It's different because mommy's responsibilities are
a bit different or mommy's personality might, I don't know if I should say
personality, but like, yeah, I mean, I've, I've grown or like, yeah, it just
may be different.
That I'm experiencing or the work I've done in therapy has produced
something different. So, yeah,
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: I would agree with that for myself as well.
Yeah. Um, and my kids are only two years apart, but I still feel like I'm,
Miranda Campbell LCSW: like,
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: pretty different
Miranda Campbell LCSW: between the two of them. Yeah. I mean,
[00:31:00] it's, it's kind of baffling. I'm sure that even the gadgets and the
things that you could kind of buy, even change in that short amount of
time.
Like, oh, we don't use that anymore. We use this now. Like, Yeah.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah. Or even like
Miranda Campbell LCSW: the, the, um, the guidance from your
pediatrician might have even evolved slightly. Yeah. Yep.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Definitely. Yeah, um, what else comes up for
you around Uh, maybe topics in your book or even if we tie, if you can
think of anything to tie back to like chronic illness and the way that we
deal with that based on our attachment styles.
Again, knowing that attachment styles can, can ebb and flow and there's
things. So yeah, anything come up for you around like. What? Yes,
Miranda Campbell LCSW: for sure. I mean, making that bridge,
especially like tailoring it for your audience. We've talked a little bit about
how anxious attachment can impact a person with chronic illness.
Avoidant attachment may make someone um, more [00:32:00] isolated.
Or like just not as open with what they're needing because they, they
want to maintain like a sense of autonomy and independence. And I
think about it as like the person, have you ever worked with a client who
like went through something horrific and like, you find out months later,
like they went MIA and you're like, uh, are they okay?
Like, maybe you may check it, you know? And they respond with
something like, I'm going through some things. But they don't return it
until it's like resolved. And it's like, well, what the heck? Like that's the
whole point of therapy or a disorganized person, you know, may good
times really, really need the help, but also not want to like sacrifice that
independence.
And so it may just ebb and flow, which can be kind of confusing for their
caregivers. But I also want to flip the script and kind of talk about. Um,
caregivers or support people identifying their own attachment style and
helping them respond [00:33:00] helpfully to their person that has a
chronic illness. And so someone who's a support person with an anxious
attachment style may feel really threatened by anything that makes them
feel like not appreciated or like they're not doing enough.
Um, an avoidant supporter caregiver may struggle with, like being
vulnerable about their own struggles. You know, or, or about their own
needs, um, and whatnot. And then a disorganized, attached, um,
supporter or caregiver may at times, like, oscillate between showing up
and being Johnny on the spot, and then burnout.
And so I think the key for, you know, whichever side you're on, if you are
the chronically ill person, person or sorry, I should say if you experience
chronic illness or the supporter caregiver, it's really about just
communicating, [00:34:00] being open, being proactive, understanding
like your partner's pain points or fears and really reassuring that If you're
supporting someone who really values autonomy and independence,
you know, you may ask, like, would it feel better if I just ran errands for
you without really talking much about it or drop off food without lingering
around for like extended conversation, you know, so you can kind of still
be solo or for someone who's just if you're supporting someone who can
have a disorganized attachment, I think having consistent routines that
are predictable.
Um, can be really helpful and calming and using any fears. But for our
caregivers, like really just making sure that you seek out your own
support to like, I urge you to try, even if you felt guilty to still pursue your
own support, your own outlets,
you
don't [00:35:00] have to feel like, well, I'm not going through everything
they're going through.
Why do I need? They're the ones that are going through it. And it's like,
no, like, this is a long, the long game. They, they need you to, um, really
use your energy as a renewable resource. So that you can be consistent
for them. Absolutely.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah. So you don't burn out and you're also
taking care of yourself.
And that always, always benefits the whole family. It's like our moms,
you know, we. You know, we need to pour into our kids and that's
normal and natural and you should be doing that, but you need to be
filled up so that you're not just giving, giving, giving and not, um, yeah,
being filled up in return. And your kids can't fill you up so you have to get
it elsewhere.
I mean, they are the joy of your life. They can be the sole source of the
fill up.
Anything [00:36:00] else come to mind around this that you want to
share before we close today?
Miranda Campbell LCSW: No, I think, I think we captured it all. Good.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: I think so too. Well, thank you for writing this
book and for putting it out there. I know people can find it on Amazon.
Are there other places people can find it?
Miranda Campbell LCSW: Yes. If you want a signed copy, granted, it's
going to be sent like super snail mail, if anyone's familiar with media
mail. Um, but we, we do offer signed copies on our website,
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Miranda.
This was a pleasure. Thank you.
Thanks for listening. If you learned something new today, consider
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Listen to Miranda’s interview with me, Destiny, on Episode 82: Understanding Attachment Styles and Chronic Illness w/ Miranda Campbell LCSW.
Miranda Campbell LCSW brings 15 years of experience in trauma-informed therapy, specializing in attachment wounds, boundaries, and relationship healing. She combines her professional expertise with a deep understanding of how cultural identity, family dynamics, and past experiences shape relationships today.
Meet Destiny - The host of The Chronic Illness Therapist Podcast and a licensed mental health therapist in the states of Georgia and Florida. Destiny offers traditional 50-minute therapy sessions as well as therapy intensives and monthly online workshops for the chronic illness community.
Destiny Davis, LPC CRC, is solely responsible for the content of this document. The views expressed herein may or may not necessarily reflect the opinions of Miranda Campbell, LCSW.